BJCP Competition Results

k47k · Dec 12, 2010

How come when you enter a BJCP competition they dont send out or publish the full results? The will publish the winners but not show the results/scores of all competitors.

It seems strange to have a competition where you only know how YOU did, you have no idea how you did compared to the rest of the competitors. Even if you win a category, the two competitions i entered, it shows that you got 1st place, but doesnt tell you what the people scored that got 2nd, 3rd etc.

i find this strange.

Yooper · Dec 12, 2010

I guess just because it's more work for the organizer, and it seems like no one really seems to care who came in 7th. You do get your score back, so you know if you scored a 37 and the third place person scored a 42, you know where you stand. At least the competitions we've done have been that way- the top three names (and their scores) listed.

Beerrific · Dec 12, 2010

Some comps do not publish the scores of 1-2-3. But, if you ask the organizer, it is likely that he/she will tell you.

Revvy · Dec 12, 2010

I dunno, nowadays it seems every bjcp comp I enter in Michigan has a webiste to register your beers and print the labels. Those comps tend to list everyone in order in a style category. Usually listing the store.

yodalegomaster · Dec 12, 2010

It's worthless and embarrassing data that's hard to collect. The reasion that you enter the competition is to get feedback on what your beers are doing against the styles. It's not about wining. I don't know if I want to be known as the the best to Style brewer, most of the styles and the descriptions make a boring and medeacorce beer. I can make a much better beer than they can judge. In Minnesota most of the comps are run by 3-5 people who enter their own beers at the same time. They collectively win 20 to 30% of the prizes and ribbons. What it really means is that they are good judges not good brewers, because they can make a very good, boring beer. And I am not even going to talk about the how the head BJCP judge "Gordon Strong" wins the Ninkasi for the last 3 years. There is lots of ingrown politics in the BJCP and they don't have a good understanding of "Conflict of interest" rules. Its a all volunteer organization, they have to reward the volunteers with some thing. Too bad they tend to make the competitions worthless in the process.

bierhaus15 · Dec 12, 2010

yodalegomaster said:
It's not about wining.... I don't know if I want to be known as the the best to Style brewer, most of the styles and the descriptions make a boring and medeacorce beer. I can make a much better beer than they can judge... And I am not even going to talk about the how the head BJCP judge "Gordon Strong" wins the Ninkasi for the last 3 years.

Competitions are about winning, no matter how you cut it. No one cares what some "judge" thinks when they already know their beer is better than 95% of the other entries. You think Jamil only entered competitions to get feedback? Also, competitions are great when your starting out because they give you a brutally honest review of your beer and therefore your brewing process. Most people think their beer is awesome, world class, but the truth is that most of it is pretty mediocre. Better made beer wins competitions.

I would be interested in seeing a recipe for a "better beer than they can judge."

However, I agree that there are some pretty sketchy things going on at BJCP comps along with conflicts of interest; especially concerning judges and comp organizers pulling in most of the ribbons, some with dishonest means. Same is true with the NYS wine comps. They are notorious for mixing their homemade wine with commerical examples.

bob1852 · Dec 12, 2010

k47k said:
Even if you win a category, the two competitions i entered, it shows that you got 1st place, but doesnt tell you what the people scored that got 2nd, 3rd etc.

i find this strange.

Sometimes there's aren't high enough scores to get a 2nd or 3rd place. There's usually a minimum score to get a 1st, 2nd, or 3rd, so if one beer scores 40 and the rest score <28, you would only have 1 "place" in that category.

Revvy · Dec 12, 2010

bierhaus15 said:
Competitions are about winning, no matter how you cut it. No one cares what some "judge" thinks when they already know their beer is better than 95% of the other entries. You think Jamil only entered competitions to get feedback? Also, competitions are great when your starting out because they give you a brutally honest review of your beer and therefore your brewing process. Most people think their beer is awesome, world class, but the truth is that most of it is pretty mediocre. Better made beer wins competitions.

I don't agree. I know a lot of brewers, myself included who submit beers for the feedback, more than for the wins. That tends to be how I perfect many of my recipes over the course of a couple of years. By entering a batch, then tweaking the next batch based on the feedback and submitting it again.

My Chocolate Mole Porter is a prime example, first time it took an honorable mention, and one of the judges had some great feedback on it. I brewed batch 2 based on the comments, submitted it and that version took a bronze, and I took that feedback to brew the current batch, which I'll submit again, and keep doing it until I feel I nailed the recipe, regardless of whether it does better in another comp.

Quite a few recipes don't make it that high, but I still value the constructive comments that usually show up on score sheets.

It's nice to win, but my goal is a great beer that I enjoy drinking, and can duplicate, and I no longer feel the need to tweak it anymore.

I find the contest system invaluable to achieve that.

stageseven · Dec 12, 2010

Revvy said:
I don't agree. I know a lot of brewers, myself included who submit beers for the feedback, more than for the wins. That tends to be how I perfect many of my recipes over the course of a couple of years. By entering a batch, then tweaking the next batch based on the feedback and submitting it again.

My Chocolate Mole Porter is a prime example, first time it took an honorable mention, and one of the judges had some great feedback on it. I brewed batch 2 based on the comments, submitted it and that version took a bronze, and I took that feedback to brew the current batch, which I'll submit again, and keep doing it until I feel I nailed the recipe, regardless of whether it does better in another comp.

Quite a few recipes don't make it that high, but I still value the constructive comments that usually show up on score sheets.

It's nice to win, but my goal is a great beer that I enjoy drinking, and can duplicate, and I no longer feel the need to tweak it anymore.

I find the contest system invaluable to achieve that.

+1 to everything Revvy said here. Although it would be helpful if the judges realized this and gave their feedback accordingly. I just entered my second competition ever after being kind of turned off to competitions with my first experience. The first one I entered I got 0 feedback on recipe or process. All they basically said was it tasted good but didn't match any style. And this was a category 23!

I have yet to get back scoresheets for the second competition but I'm hopeful that I'll get more useful comments on the same beer. I don't brew to follow the bjcp, I do it to make good beers that I want to drink. If they happen to match up with a style guideline sheet so be it, but the flavor is the real priority to me.

yodalegomaster · Dec 12, 2010

bierhaus15 said:
Competitions are about winning, no matter how you cut it. No one cares what some "judge" thinks when they already know their beer is better than 95% of the other entries. You think Jamil only entered competitions to get feedback? Also, competitions are great when your starting out because they give you a brutally honest review of your beer and therefore your brewing process. Most people think their beer is awesome, world class, but the truth is that most of it is pretty mediocre. Better made beer wins competitions.

I don't think you got what I was trying to express. The message was that All you can expect from a compition is "feedback" if you are an average brewer.

The people who win competitions are people who know how to brew beers to the description in in the BJCP guide. Therefore some one is tasting ahead of time and making adjustments to meet the guidelines. " the winners are the best tasters" not the best brewers.

I would be interested in seeing a recipe for a "better beer than they can judge."

Again, If you think that good beer is about the recipe your sadly mistaken, it's the brewer and the attention to detail and creativity that makes the best beers. Think about all the best commercial beers you have had, they are probably not to style.

TE]

stageseven · Dec 12, 2010

I'll agree that good beers aren't all about recipe, and that creativty and attention to detail are important, but yodalego, it sounds like you're going to the opposite extreme towards process. In order to make a really great beer you need both in equal parts, not just recipe or process. Take Dogfish for example. They practically run from style guidelines, have great creativity, and I can only assume reasonably good process. But they still put out some really great beers and some terrible ones. Reasonably the only conclusion I can draw from that is they are good brewers that make an occasional bad beer, and the recipe is the cause.

I find it hard to buy that a good brewer with a bad recipe is going to make a better beer than an average brewer with a good recipe. But im sure both of them will still be better than a bad brewery with any recipe.

azscoob · Dec 12, 2010

I have several recipes that make fantastic beer, they just don't fit neatly into the BJCP categories, that being said I have entered competitions and have gotten back great feedback on those beers, and the recipes have been improved as a result. They are not quite category 23 unusual, just more of a style blend if you will.

I think the spirit of the BJCP is to test your ability to brew, not so much what you brew. More technique as opposed to recipe.

yodalegomaster · Dec 12, 2010

stageseven said:
Take Dogfish for example. They practically run from style guidelines, have great creativity, and I can only assume reasonably good process. But they still put out some really great beers and some terrible ones.

DFH makes a bad beer? Not in my book, everything I had from DFH is first rate. Remember we all have preferences for what we like in beer tastes. I don't like blinding Dry Beers, but love sours beers for there complexity. Most people think I am nuts when I talk about sour beers. That means I look at a very dry and crisp saison, and think what a waste and my choice of recipes and process reflect the fact I see no reason to make a blindingly dry beer. We all see the world through the lens of these preferences.

That's why I like brewing beer I can include my preferances into the making of a beer. I have to drink it.

remilard · Dec 12, 2010

yodalegomaster said:
There is lots of ingrown politics in the BJCP and they don't have a good understanding of "Conflict of interest" rules. Its a all volunteer organization, they have to reward the volunteers with some thing. Too bad they tend to make the competitions worthless in the process.

I've never seen a violation of blind judging at a competition. Do you care to explain how the cheating is taking place? Have you considered the possibility that you don't win because your beer is crap?

stageseven · Dec 12, 2010

yodalegomaster said:
DFH makes a bad beer? Not in my book, everything I had from DFH is first rate.

Pangaea, Wrath of Pecant, Poppaskull, Limb & Life (not Life & Limb), Saison du Buff (aka liquid Rosemary), and a number of the brew pub exclusives (odd-umm and shark beer immediately jump to mind) were mediocre at best and a hot mess at worst.

SpanishCastleAle · Dec 13, 2010

Beer competitions may not be about 'winning' to each and every entrant but competition raises the bar and is what makes the feedback so valuable. So imo the competitive aspect of it is crucial. But I don't think it inspires any corruption of the results.

Regarding some of these guys that pull in a ton of awards (Jamil, Gordon Strong, etc.); those guys often enter more beers per competition than many people brew in a year. 25, maybe even up to 50 beers entered in one competition is not that unusual for some of these heavy hitters. I'm not saying they are not great brewers, they are great brewers, but it's a numbers game too.

Brewing to style is a great way to learn imo. Most beginning musicians start off by copying other people's music, it is a fast way to learn the basics/fundamentals.

dongemus · Feb 17, 2013

Back to the original post, it would be helpful to know the other entries score. I just got the results of my first competition today... a 35 for a Belgian (18). I didn't place so I don't know how I did among the pack of the 25 others. It would be helpful to me... especially if I was 25th or 4th. It would tell me a lot.

weirdboy · Feb 17, 2013

Way to resurrect a 2+ year old thread.

I'm not sure what the point is of knowing how everyone else scored. It doesn't matter how everyone else scored. What matters is reading and understanding the feedback you got so you can improve your beer.

35 is a good score for your first competition. Now read the feedback and try to get an idea of why they didn't score it higher. While you're reading the feedback, be sure to reference the BJCP style guidelines for the subcategory you entered, so you can see how their perception of the beer aligns (or doesn't) with those guidelines, because that is how it is scored.

yodalegomaster · Feb 18, 2013

35 points is an great score, I would say it's going to be in top 5 of any normal judging round. What style was it, what were the ratings of the judges, what was the feed back they gave you? In a normal flight of 25 your going to have 2-3 teams of judging, every other beer, and the placement early in the flight helps increase the points.

PS: DFH is not distributed in Minnesota, and no longer sold in Wisconsin, so I don't have access to specific brews they sell in the tap rooms.

mattd2 · Feb 18, 2013

SpanishCastleAle said:
Beer competitions may not be about 'winning' to each and every entrant but competition raises the bar and is what makes the feedback so valuable. So imo the competitive aspect of it is crucial. But I don't think it inspires any corruption of the results.

Regarding some of these guys that pull in a ton of awards (Jamil, Gordon Strong, etc.); those guys often enter more beers per competition than many people brew in a year. 25, maybe even up to 50 beers entered in one competition is not that unusual for some of these heavy hitters. I'm not saying they are not great brewers, they are great brewers, but it's a numbers game too.

Brewing to style is a great way to learn imo. Most beginning musicians start off by copying other people's music, it is a fast way to learn the basics/fundamentals.

I think the last NZ national Homebrew compition was run with scoring that pinged brewers that shotguned the compition with a large number of beers with the hope that some got good scores.
Basically for the best brewer title you got scored on every single beer you entered, if they were average you got 0, below average you lost points.

dongemus said:
Back to the original post, it would be helpful to know the other entries score. I just got the results of my first competition today... a 35 for a Belgian (18). I didn't place so I don't know how I did among the pack of the 25 others. It would be helpful to me... especially if I was 25th or 4th. It would tell me a lot.

Again what does it matter where you came? As someone said before to medal you usually have to score higher than a set point otherwise if the higher score was 25 it is just considered no one did well enough for a medal.
Yes it is great if you medal, but if you didn't whats the point knowing you were 7th highest for the style for that year?
I just I am trying to say it would not tell you a lot unless you also know how good those other brewers were?
What will tell you the most is your score sheet which tells you where you acheived a good beer and where you fell down.

highgravitybacon · Feb 19, 2013

They already have the scoring information. The organizers have to put a ranked list together to see who is 1,2,3 etc. If you're entering a competition to get feedback, you probably need to find some ******* with no social skills to drink your beer first, give you the honest feedback, and save the $7 entry and $14 shipping fee. If you want feedback AND the chance to win, then competitions (which are called that for a reason) might be the place. They're not feedbackatitions.

BJCP Competition Results

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