Has anyone oxidized their beer?

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nefarious_1_

nefarious_1_

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It is my belief that it's actually quite hard to oxidize your beer. However, I constantly hear discussions demonstrating mass paranoia regarding oxidation: it seems many brewers are quite worried about it.

I've also heard discussions on here claiming that you'd actually have to pump a great deal of O2 through the beer to experience the effects of oxidation. This is my feeling.

I'd like to see how often this actually occurs and the brewers' mistake in each instance.

1. How many people have thought they oxidized their beer and it turned out fine?
2. How many people have actually experienced off-flavors due to oxidized beer?
3. What was the flaw in your racking/bottling/kegging process that caused the off-flavor you experienced due to oxidation?

Thanks.
 
The issue is more about shelf life. The more oxygen in there, the quicker it will go bad. If you drink all of your batch in a couple of weeks, then you will probably never taste the oxidation. There are a lot of things that oxygen affects. The hop flavors will go away faster for example.
 
I have some. 2nd batch of beer. I thought the auto-siphon was a pump and I went nuts trying to get the last of it out of the carboy. (Apparently all the great home brewers do this!)

The issue IMO is amplified with time. The beer in question above has it but it was not detectable when it was young. (at least to me) This has more to do with extended aging/storage than anything else. Most new homebrewers drink up their beer before they can taste the oxidation. The style also has a lot to do with this. A stout or IPA can hide this for a long time.

If you really want to see if you are right, make up some light cream ale or a lager in 1 gallon batches. Transfer 1 perfectly, transfer 1 with a gentle stirring (to simulate mixing in priming sugar, pump an auto-siphon in another and shake the crap out of the last one. Bottle them up then taste each one every month until they are gone. If you are correct they should all taste identical.
 
I agree, it has more to do with long term storage. It just seems that every time I've had a problem racking (air bubbles, etc.) the beer comes out fine even in cases of long term storage ie. 6+ months.
 
nefarious_1_ said:
I agree, it has more to do with long term storage. It just seems that every time I've had a problem racking (air bubbles, etc.) the beer comes out fine even in cases of long term storage ie. 6+ months.
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Those are probably not air bubbles in the line during racking. That would be CO2 that was in suspension in the ale that was "knocked out" during the transfer. :mug:
 
I had a pilsner where the star-san solution got sucked into carboy when it went into the cold storage fridge for lagering. Took me a while to realize it, so it lagered for several days with no barrier to oxygen getting in. The beer tasted fine, but had a definite cardboard-like off flavor that seemed clearly consistent with oxidation.
 
I did an IPA a little while ago where I had some issues near the bottom of the bottling bucket and ended up getting some oxidation in the last few bottles. I can pick out which ones they were, but it's fairly subtle. It's sort of like if you order a pitcher at a bar and take a little too long drinking it... the first pint is tastier than the one 30 minutes later, but it's not undrinkable or ruined really.
 
I experienced wet cardboard flavors in a 2 hearted clone I made as my first AG brew. It was a 3 gal batch that I fermented in a 6 gal carboy and transferred to secondary into a 5 gal carboy. All I can think is the huge amount of head space in secondary with little to no CO2 after primary. The flavors did not go away with time. They only got worse.
 
Zamial said:
Those are probably not air bubbles in the line during racking. That would be CO2 that was in suspension in the ale that was "knocked out" during the transfer. :mug:
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I'm not sure it was CO2. These were large bubbles, almost certainly air. It happened to a couple batches before I realized that I needed hose clamps to get a tight connection around my bottling wand when I first started brewing. I still notice the CO2 bubbles you describe though, but that doesn't worry me. Those two batches were around for quite a while and I didn't notice anything.

Another time I pulled a good deal of air while transferring an IPA to the bottling bucket because of a dry hops clog. That beer actually turned out to be one of the best beers I've made! Of course, I drank it in just a couple months so I can't really say if it effected the taste in the long run. Now I always use a paint strainer bag to prevent this.

Evidently, it does occur though. There's enough people on here who've had problems. I guess I've been lucky the few times I had O2 issues. It would be nice to hear from other people who've had similar experiences to me though, so I know I can actually detect wet cardboard! :cross:
 
I think home brewers love to obsess about problems that aren't there. Not saying oxidation is a myth - but we get a bit freaky when it comes to managing around these things.
 
It's sort of an abundance of caution thing for me. I don't worry about every little air bubble or exposure to air, but I try to avoid it just to be safe. I can't say I've ever experienced oxidation, but I usually finish a batch in less than a few months in the keg.
 
I had a batch of Yooper's Dead Guy clone that I accidentally left in the primary for 3.5 months. I had opened the bucket a few times but hadn't flushed the head space with CO2. It took on a cardboard/sherry-like flavor. I call it a "matured" dead guy ale, but, really, it's just a beer I lost because I was too busy.
 
I haven't had a problem and I dont worry too much about it during transfer. Controlling storage temps is probably a lot more important than how careful you are during racking if you want to maintain freshness. That's one reason why kegged beer tastes so good since you are usually storing it cold the whole time once fermentation is done.
 
During the first year I brewed I was bottling straight from the spigot of the bottling bucket and didn't know any better. With all of that splashing I def had some of the cardboard taste, but even so it usually wasn't until 3-4 months of conditioning-so I feel more minor things that happen during racking shouldn't oxidize the beer too bad
 
I had a loose fitting hose on my autosiphon when racking a centennial pale ale to the bottling bucket and it produced a ton of air bubbles during the transfer. I didn't think much of it during the transfer, but the bottles most *definitely* displayed a cardboard flavor almost to the point of being undrinkable. It also definitely strengthened with age.

With proper techniques you generally don't have to worry about oxidation, but if you let the beer slosh around post-fermentation you can be sure to taste some off-flavors.
 
Gameface said:
It's sort of an abundance of caution thing for me. I don't worry about every little air bubble or exposure to air, but I try to avoid it just to be safe. I can't say I've ever experienced oxidation, but I usually finish a batch in less than a few months in the keg.
Click to expand...

I agree, overly cautious is good. That way, you know (or close to it) that your beer will turn out as best as possible. I must say though, after a certain point, it becomes overkill. Given the replies here, it seems oxidation mostly occurs in extreme cases. I'm not saying everyone should go willy nilly pumping air through their beer, but maybe we can Relax a bit and... ...how does it go... ...DWHAHB?
 
nefarious_1_ said:
I agree, overly cautious is good. That way, you know (or close to it) that your beer will turn out as best as possible. I must say though, after a certain point, it becomes overkill. Given the replies here, it seems oxidation mostly occurs in extreme cases. I'm not saying everyone should go willy nilly pumping air through their beer, but maybe we can Relax a bit and... ...how does it go... ...DWHAHB?
Click to expand...

My general attitude with things like this is to try really hard to prevent it, but then if it happens... meh, people have been making beer for centuries without even knowing what yeast is, let alone having all these nifty gadgets and measuring devices. It Will Still Be Beer.
 
I think short lifespan and also the tendency towards less delicate beers makes fewer off flavors get noticed. I have a batch of delicious wet cardboard now. If only I could add 1 oz. of prevention into my BeerSmith recipes...

There definitely some HB boogeymen out there that we need more light shed on. Plastic fermenters, hot side aeration, autolysis I think are all up for debate. Oxidation, however, is not.
 
Erroneous said:
I think short lifespan and also the tendency towards less delicate beers makes fewer off flavors get noticed. I have a batch of delicious wet cardboard now. If only I could add 1 oz. of prevention into my BeerSmith recipes...There definitely some HB boogeymen out there that we need more light shed on. Plastic fermenters, hot side aeration, autolysis I think are all up for debate. Oxidation, however, is not.
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You can add antioxidants such as sulfites or vitamen C to your beer for prevention if you're really worried about oxidation . On the other hand, the cardboard flavor has been shown to be associated with the production of (E)-2-nonenal with the best experimental data showing formation occurs independent of oxygen concentration, and is much more dependent on storage temps. Of course you want to limit oxygenating your beer but the best way to keep it fresh is cold storage and that will have a much greater impact on staling than how you run your siphon tube.

The best article on the subject is the one in the referrence below but it is very heavy in the chemistry. Someone linked the complete text here recently but I haven't been able to find that thread again, and online I can only find the abstract and selected excerpts in other articles. If anyone has a link to the full text pdf I'd love to get it again.

Vanderhaegen, B., Nevin, H., Verachtert, H., Derdelinckx, G., “The chemistry of beer aging – a critical review”, Food Chemistry 95 (2006), 357-381
 
brewit2it said:
You can add antioxidants such as sulfites or vitamen C to your beer for prevention if you're really worried about oxidation . On the other hand, the cardboard flavor has been shown to be associated with the production of (E)-2-nonenal with the best experimental data showing formation occurs independent of oxygen concentration, and is much more dependent on storage temps. Of course you want to limit oxygenating your beer but the best way to keep it fresh is cold storage and that will have a much greater impact on staling than how you run your siphon tube.

The best article on the subject is the one in the referrence below but it is very heavy in the chemistry. Someone linked the complete text here recently but I haven't been able to find that thread again, and online I can only find the abstract and selected excerpts in other articles. If anyone has a link to the full text pdf I'd love to get it again.

Vanderhaegen, B., Nevin, H., Verachtert, H., Derdelinckx, G., “The chemistry of beer aging – a critical review”, Food Chemistry 95 (2006), 357-381
Click to expand...

I have seen this discussed before but was never given a source.
Thanks for the reference, I'm going to try to find this. Dense text or not, it sounds like great info!
 
Oxidation is very common. I've judged some competitions (actually, quite a few) and I'd say that most of the beers have some degree of oxidation. Oh, not that severe "cardboard" flavor I've heard of (that would be an extreme case of oxidation), but there were definite hints of signs of oxidation in nearly every one.

In a very small amount, oxidation can present like a bit of a harshness on the sides of the tongue. Not quite metallic, but like that sort of sensation. In a greater amount, the beer can have sherry or madeira notes- like sherry wine. That's a sign of oxidation as well.

I'd say that many, many homebrews I've had have had signs of oxidation.
 
brewit2it said:
You can add antioxidants such as sulfites or vitamen C to your beer for prevention if you're really worried about oxidation . On the other hand, the cardboard flavor has been shown to be associated with the production of (E)-2-nonenal with the best experimental data showing formation occurs independent of oxygen concentration, and is much more dependent on storage temps. Of course you want to limit oxygenating your beer but the best way to keep it fresh is cold storage and that will have a much greater impact on staling than how you run your siphon tube.

The best article on the subject is the one in the referrence below but it is very heavy in the chemistry. Someone linked the complete text here recently but I haven't been able to find that thread again, and online I can only find the abstract and selected excerpts in other articles. If anyone has a link to the full text pdf I'd love to get it again.

Vanderhaegen, B., Nevin, H., Verachtert, H., Derdelinckx, G., “The chemistry of beer aging – a critical review”, Food Chemistry 95 (2006), 357-381
Click to expand...

I found some criticism for the paper referenced above here.

While not the actual paper itself, the article gives a seemingly excellent synopsis of the crux. Apparently, this (E)-2-nonenal compound is linked to the cardboard flavor many consider to be "oxidation" and occurs completely independent of oxygen exposure, but rather during aging instead. brewit2it has already mentioned this, I am merely confirming his point.

Yooper said:
Oxidation is very common. I've judged some competitions (actually, quite a few) and I'd say that most of the beers have some degree of oxidation. Oh, not that severe "cardboard" flavor I've heard of (that would be an extreme case of oxidation), but there were definite hints of signs of oxidation in nearly every one.

In a very small amount, oxidation can present like a bit of a harshness on the sides of the tongue. Not quite metallic, but like that sort of sensation. In a greater amount, the beer can have sherry or madeira notes- like sherry wine. That's a sign of oxidation as well.

I'd say that many, many homebrews I've had have had signs of oxidation.
Click to expand...

I wonder if some of these beers are just going through the natural aging process described in said paper. It would be great to find the actual paper itself though. Before I'm sold on the topic, I'd like to read it instead of someone else's critique.
 
nefarious_1_ said:
Apparently, this (E)-2-nonenal compound is linked to the cardboard flavor many consider to be "oxidation" and occurs completely independent of oxygen exposure
Click to expand...

I think there is a misunderstanding here. Oxidation does not require molecular oxygen. So saying that trans-2-nonenal is not sensitive to molecular oxygen in the package is not the same as saying that it is not caused by oxidation (which it obviously is).

ETA: By "obviously", I mean "by definition".
 
Yooper said:
Oxidation is very common. I've judged some competitions (actually, quite a few) and I'd say that most of the beers have some degree of oxidation. Oh, not that severe "cardboard" flavor I've heard of (that would be an extreme case of oxidation), but there were definite hints of signs of oxidation in nearly every one.

In a very small amount, oxidation can present like a bit of a harshness on the sides of the tongue. Not quite metallic, but like that sort of sensation. In a greater amount, the beer can have sherry or madeira notes- like sherry wine. That's a sign of oxidation as well.

I'd say that many, many homebrews I've had have had signs of oxidation.
Click to expand...

I may have gotten some of that in some of my beers. I assumed it was astringency possibly from my corona grain mill shreading husks. I suppose it could be a combination of both since both are more of a mouthfeel than a taste.
 
Astringency is more the surface of the tongue tightening. I find that people like to call anything harsh (harshly bitter for example) astringent.

Tannins can be harsh separate from being astringent. Think of a young California Cab. It is astringent, but not all of the harshness is astringency. It is more or less all from tannin.
 
Yooper said:
Oxidation is very common. I've judged some competitions (actually, quite a few) and I'd say that most of the beers have some degree of oxidation. Oh, not that severe "cardboard" flavor I've heard of (that would be an extreme case of oxidation), but there were definite hints of signs of oxidation in nearly every one.

In a very small amount, oxidation can present like a bit of a harshness on the sides of the tongue. Not quite metallic, but like that sort of sensation. In a greater amount, the beer can have sherry or madeira notes- like sherry wine. That's a sign of oxidation as well.

I'd say that many, many homebrews I've had have had signs of oxidation.
Click to expand...

Two of the three beers I entered in a contest were knocked for oxidation.
I couldn't tell then but I can now since I was made aware of the taste.
I can definitely taste it in all mine and my friends homebrews now to a certain level after they have been sitting around for a while. Not all bad but some can be distracting.
 
nefarious_1_ said:
It is my belief that it's actually quite hard to oxidize your beer. However, I constantly hear discussions demonstrating mass paranoia regarding oxidation: it seems many brewers are quite worried about it.

I've also heard discussions on here claiming that you'd actually have to pump a great deal of O2 through the beer to experience the effects of oxidation.
Click to expand...

Keep a beer around long enough and chances are you'll taste oxidation, as for having to pump alot of O2 to damage the beer is wrong.

Revy was talking out his ass in that regard, it doesn't take much and over time the effects will show up.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/how-much-oxygen-oxidation-182770/#post2116822

shutupjojo said:
I couldn't tell then but I can now since I was made aware of the taste.
I can definitely taste it in all mine and my friends homebrews now to a certain level after they have been sitting around for a while.
Click to expand...

Thats often the way its is, once you know the taste you can spot it easily.


MattHollingsworth said:
Also in my experience as a judge years ago (and with local homebrewers now), the single most common problem with beers is oxidation. I'm hyper sensitive to it. Some people don't notice it or do notice it but don't know what it is. If you can be sure that this *is* oxidation you have, try to take the pint glass half full way of viewing it, take it as a lesson and clean up your technique.
Click to expand...

Yooper said:
Oxidation is very common. I've judged some competitions (actually, quite a few) and I'd say that most of the beers have some degree of oxidation. Oh, not that severe "cardboard" flavor I've heard of (that would be an extreme case of oxidation), but there were definite hints of signs of oxidation in nearly every one.
Click to expand...



There you go two judges that both agree its a common problem.
 
remilard said:
I think there is a misunderstanding here. Oxidation does not require molecular oxygen. So saying that trans-2-nonenal is not sensitive to molecular oxygen in the package is not the same as saying that it is not caused by oxidation (which it obviously is).

ETA: By "obviously", I mean "by definition".
Click to expand...

Perhaps my explanation was not clear. An excerpt from the paper itself, within the article I reference:
"From the previous considerations, it becomes clear that oxygen triggers the release of free radicals, which can easily react with many beer constituents, leading to rapid changes in the flavour profile. Among these processes are the oxidation of alcohols, hop bitter compounds, and polyphenols. … Modern filling equipment can achieve total oxygen levels in the bottle of less than 0.1mg/L. At such low oxygen levels, it is debatable whether the formation of ROS is the determining factor in the aging of these beers. Indeed, other molecules present in beer have enough reactivity to interact and form staling compounds. Beer staling is often regarded as only result of oxidation, but non-oxidative processes may be just as important, especially at the low oxygen levels reached in modern breweries.
Non-oxidative reactions causing flavor detorioration are esterifications, etherifications, Maillard reactions, glycoside and ester hydrolysis. Even (E)-2-nonenal, a compound long suspected to be the main cause of oxidized flavour, paradoxically appears to arise by non-oxidative mechanisms in beer. This explains why staling is possible in the absence of oxygen. On the other hand, although some compounds result from oxidation reactions, it is at present not really clear with compound(s) is/are responsible for the oxidation off-flavour of beer."
Click to expand...

In summary, the compound that produces the cardboard flavor occurs by non-oxidative mechanisms: linking this flavor to oxidation is a potential misconception. Other flavors, instead, are linked to oxidation and even those flavors may result merely from the aging process. Again, I'd like to read the actual paper itself, not a critique.

This is probably where my confusion occurs. This "wet cardboard" talk needs to be toned down a bit, I think. Most of the oxidation descriptions in this thread describe different flavors.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________


That said, this definitely sheds more light on the subject. Thanks guys!
All I ever hear is "Don't splash, it'll taste like wet cardboard!" and I have yet to experience this flavor.
It led me to believe that oxidation was more uncommon than one would think.

Next time I open a 6+ month old bottle, I'll have to see if I can taste any of the subtleties you guys are talking about. I do taste off-flavors in my beers from time to time. If I'm unable to put my finger on it, I just take it as a batch that needs improvement and move on. Maybe it just needs to be pointed out to me, as someone posted earlier.
 

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