uncommon brewing salts

Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

Kaiser

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 1, 2005
Messages
3,895
Reaction score
171
Location
Pepperell, MA
I noticed that out of the 9 salts for the 6 important brewing water minerals (Ca, Mg, Na, Cl, SO4, CO3) we commonly use only 6:

Calcium Chloride
Gypsum
Chalk
Epsom Salt
Table Salt
Baking Soda

But what is with the other 3:

Magnesium Chloride
Magnesium Carbonate
Sodium Sulfate

Are they to dangerous to handle or just not widely distributed.

Kai
 
Magnesium chloride can be extracted from seawater and is used for a variety of other applications besides the production of magnesium: the manufacture of textiles, paper, fireproofing agents, cements and refrigeration brine.

Magnesium carbonate, most often referred to as 'chalk', is used as a drying agent for hands in rock climbing, gymnastics, and weight lifting.


Sodium Sulfate - The largest use is as filler in powdered home laundry detergents, consuming approx. 50% of world production. It is important in the manufacture of textiles, particularly in Japan, where it is the largest application. Sodium sulfate helps in "leveling", reducing negative charges on fibres so that dyes can penetrate evenly. Unlike the alternative sodium chloride, it does not corrode the stainless steel vessels used in dyeing.
 
Honestly Kai, I don't know. I think there are a couple of biologists/chem majors running around here that would be much better equipped to answer that than myself.
I am an EE, so I am slipping outside my realm of expertise.
 
I found then at a science supply. $60-$90 for 500g. I guess I don't need them that badly.

Kai
 
2 of them are food additives. MgCl2 is E511 and MgCO3 is E504. E221 is Na2SO3, but I believe that is derived from Na2SO4. At any rate, they're probably difficult to get and expensive, as you've said. I think making them from other available chemicals would be difficult too.
 
I noticed that out of the 9 salts for the 6 important brewing water minerals (Ca, Mg, Na, Cl, SO4, CO3) we commonly use only 6:

Calcium Chloride
Gypsum
Chalk
Epsom Salt
Table Salt
Baking Soda

But what is with the other 3:

Magnesium Chloride
Magnesium Carbonate
Sodium Sulfate

Are they to dangerous to handle or just not widely distributed.

Kai

They really aren't needed. Calcium is by far the most important metallic ion in brewing water so for the vast majority of additions it is the calcium salts that will be used. For some profiles like Burton water a small quantity of magnesium sulphate (Epsom salt) might be required. The two sodium salts on the first list are rarely called for, their calcium equivalents are much better choices for the most part IMO. I don't know of any circumstance where the bottom three salts would be a necessity or where one from the top list wouldn't be preferred, not to mention easier to find.

:mug:
 
Exploring some sort of Saltheitsbot situation?


Occasionally I come across brewing water specs and they tend to contain a substantial level of magnesium. With the currently available salts it is difficult to increase Mg w/o a substantial sulphate increase. Hence the interest in other magnesium salts.

Kai
 
it would be interesting to have the other salts to play around with but I haven't found any water profiles I cant duplicate from tap or distilled water with the regular salts. why do you need these other salts, are you working with water thats high is SO4 and low in Mg to start with?
How to Brew by John Palmer lists Mg as being similar to but less important than Ca it doesnt mention much of an impact of the flavor, are you just looking for Mg salts to clone another water supply or is there another chemistry reason?
 
what about this from distilled water:

Code:
City                Ca++    CO3--   Cl-     Mg++    Na+     SO4--
Munich              75      148     2       18      2       10

How to get 18 ppm Mg while keeping SO4 below 10?

Not that I need to emulate this water exactly, it shows the limitations of not having all the magnesium salts.

Kai
 
what about this from distilled water:

Code:
City                Ca++    CO3--   Cl-     Mg++    Na+     SO4--
Munich              75      148     2       18      2       10

How to get 18 ppm Mg while keeping SO4 below 10?

Not that I need to emulate this water exactly, it shows the limitations of not having all the magnesium salts.

Kai

If not exact how close are you trying to get? A differential of 10ppm of SO4 is not a big deal IMO. It's virtually impossible for a homebrewer to hit every ion ppm in a brewing water style. What's important is to have enough of the important ions for the style, in the case of a Munich it's calcium for conversion and carbonates for pH control with higher kilned malts. The quantities of the other ions are so low in this style as to be inconsequential. It is worth remembering that the published ion numbers of traditional brewing waters are averages. Those numbers can and do vary due to changes in weather, time of year and there are ofter multiple sources of water used. If you have the equipment and patience to measure miniscule quantities then go for it if not then I don't think there is much to worry about.

:mug:
 
Yes, that is my point. I'm not trying to duplicate this water but you stated that you haven't found any profile that you cannot copy with the common brewing salts.

Kai
 
Additionally, how accurate are regional water profiles in regards to what modern breweries in those regions brew with? For instance, I'm not sure what German beer laws state about treating water, but I would assume they don't prevent them from diluting water with distilled or RO water.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that a region's water profile doesn't necessarily represent water for modern beer styles from that region. I've read about breweries (particularly European... definitely Belgian, possibly German) diluting water from local sources with distilled/RO water.

But, Kai, you probably know more about this than I, so maybe you can educate me.
 
These historical water profiles don't mean much these days. Water treatment is very common these days and allowed as log as the result meets drinking water standards. (no salts to the mash are allowed though). Paulaner for example has a deep well from which they get very soft and Munich unlike water. The use of RO water is uncommon as it is too expensive for most breweries. I agree with BigEd that targeting certain mineral levels is the best way to build good water.

Kai
 
Kai,

I did a quick google search using the synonyms from Menschmachine and actually end up following one of the paid adds on the right and found some stuff that might just work well. Not nesacarily cheap, but then again, one doesn't really need that much.

I'd be curious about the Mg Citrate. The citrate would be easily metabolized by the yeast. I saw one that was a blend with Mg Aspartate which would give a bonus amino acid. It might be worth checking out the supplements/vitamin section your favorite grocery or drug store.

Mg containing dietary supplements
 
Magnesium chloride hexahydrate is a commonly used salt for dosing reef aquariums and is available pretty cheaply here.

You get a gallon (7 pounds) for $16.99 which is an insane quantity for brewing. Might be a worthwhile item for a club to order and split though. While it isn't food grade reef aquarists only use extraordinarily pure additives for fear of poisoning thousands of dollars worth of corals and fish. I personally use my reef salts as my brewing salts and I'm still alive.

1-med-Magnesium-Chloride.gif
 
Here's MgCl2 for about $60 with shipping for 3629 g. It doesn't state food grade, but since it's for dermal use, it may be OK for treating brew water(?). (This from someone who has used lye bought at Lowes for pretzel making!:cross:)
 
7 pounds is $26.19 shipped from Bulk Reef Supply. Call me crazy but I'd take that over $61.95 for 6.5 pounds!

menschmaschine: the link you provided is only 47% mag chloride, the balance is sea salt including sodium.
 
Has anyone thought to ring the reef supplier or or the company who supplies the chemical to ask them if it is food safe? Often these things are packaged into two different containers off the end of the same line.

Ringing to ask can't hurt, and while I'd believe you when you say you think they'd be OK, I would be the fussy git to go make sure...
 
Kai,

An off the wall suggestion for you - Milk of Magnesia. This is a suspension of Magnesium Hydroxide, it's food/pharma grade, available everywhere. I don't think it has any other ingredients except Mg(OH)2, and water, but you could find out readily. The problem I see is it will require some pH adjustment due to the hydroxide, but you could easily do that with HCl or lactic or some other acid.
 
Oops, I spoke too soon. Mg(OH)2 water solubility is too low to be useful - 12 mg/liter or less than 50 mg/gallon. This would give you only 5 ppm of Mg. Though if you really wanted to you could dissolve it in your acid then add it.
 
I don't know if anyone is still interested in this subject, but for completeness...

MgCl is also known as Nigari in Japan and is used in the production of tofu. You can get food grade quantities cheap. For example,

Mitoku Natural Nigari 1 lb.
 
Or the link I posted on the last page. It used to be available in Lowes as drive way de-icer but only from Dead Sea Works and even then there were concerns over purity. Cheapest source of this salt (that I am aware of) is going to be through the reef tank hobby because of the volume required. My 190 gallon aquarium consumes about 14 pounds per year.
 
MgCO3 is pretty insoluble in water. However, I bet under pressure it will dissolve like CaCO3. I did an experiment with atmospheric pressure. It will dissolve some but mostly just settles to the bottom. I bet it will act like CaCO3 in a mash. It doesn't dissolve easily either. Rock climbing chalk (unscented) is pure and like $1.00 for a pound.

MgCl flakes can be found online for bath purposes. You find some with a starch additive so be on the look out for pure. It's about $15.00 a pound.

Be careful not to add too much Mg+. It can cause diarrhea in large doses.

I'm usually looking for malt forward tricks so I've never heard of the NaSO4.
 
I have almost a full gallon of MgCl2 left over from an expired saltwater aquarium hobby. Randy holmes farley on reefcentral was the reef equivalent of AjdeLange or Kaiser type contributer. Very good water chemistry knowledge that certainly translates to brewing in many ways. Been using tubs of CaCl and MgSO4 for many years now in the brewing realm. Gotta be careful with the Mg salts - they seem to turn to slush in minutes when exposed to ambient....
 
Has anyone thought to ring the reef supplier or or the company who supplies the chemical to ask them if it is food safe? Often these things are packaged into two different containers off the end of the same line.

Ringing to ask can't hurt, and while I'd believe you when you say you think they'd be OK, I would be the fussy git to go make sure...

Wait, I thought fish was "food"?
 
Back
Top