Define wine?

I'm confused by a lot of the 'wine' recipes on here. Is there a definition of what exactly wine is? A percentage of the fermentables that have to be from fruit or juice? Some of the beverages in this subforum are sugar based with fruit or other flavorings. Not saying there is anything wrong with that, it just doesn't seem like wine.

Wyrmwood said:

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=wine+site:en.wikipedia.org

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Wow, you could be the most helpful person on the internet. I've never heard of google or wikipedia. Life changing. Thanks!

"Wine" doesn't have a real definition as far as I know.

I know many winemakers call just about anything fermented "wine", while others only consider beverages made from actual wine grapes as "wine".

My personal definition is that fruit (or fruit juice) that is fermented is "wine", even if other fermentables are added, unless it has another definition (like perry, cider, or mead). A sugar wash (like used for distilling) isn't "wine", but 3 pounds of rhubarb and a pound of sugar IS.

Wine is any kind of fruit juice that is fermented, cleared, and bottled. The addition of sugar to the must is called Chaptalization. Chaptalization is an accepted method of commercial wine making so there you go.

TNGabe said:

Wow, you could be the most helpful person on the internet. I've never heard of google or wikipedia. Life changing. Thanks!

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The definition is right there...

"Wine is an alcoholic beverage made from fermented grapes or other fruits."

"Wines made from produce besides grapes are usually named after the product from which they are produced (for example, rice wine, pomegranate wine, apple wine and elderberry wine) and are generically called fruit wine. The term "wine" can also refer to starch-fermented or fortified beverages having higher alcohol content, such as barley wine or sake."

There's also information on the classification of wines, et al.

Wyrmwood said:

The definition is right there...

"Wine is an alcoholic beverage made from fermented grapes or other fruits."

"Wines made from produce besides grapes are usually named after the product from which they are produced (for example, rice wine, pomegranate wine, apple wine and elderberry wine) and are generically called fruit wine. The term "wine" can also refer to starch-fermented or fortified beverages having higher alcohol content, such as barley wine or sake."

There's also information on the classification of wines, et al.

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Ok, you've out-trolled me, you win. I should have asked what I really want to know which is 'Why is Skeeter Pee in the wine forum?'

TNGabe said:

Ok, you've out-trolled me, you win. I should have asked what I really want to know which is 'Why is Skeeter Pee in the wine forum?'

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Because we don't have a hooch forum.

TNGabe said:

Ok, you've out-trolled me, you win. I should have asked what I really want to know which is 'Why is Skeeter Pee in the wine forum?'

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I guess technically it's fermented lemonade (?) which is made out of lemons so it's a lemonade wine? I guess that's a stretch though. "Hooch" would be describe it. It's not "pruno" since it wasn't made in prison with ketchup packages.

I've just always talked about "wine" as a fermented fruit or fruit juice and sometimes wine lovers have corrected me to the real wine, grape wine from wine grapes. I'm not nearly as discriminating, I guess!

Yooper said:

I guess technically it's fermented lemonade (?) which is made out of lemons so it's a lemonade wine? I guess that's a stretch though. "Hooch" would be describe it. It's not "pruno" since it wasn't made in prison with ketchup packages.

I've just always talked about "wine" as a fermented fruit or fruit juice and sometimes wine lovers have corrected me to the real wine, grape wine from wine grapes. I'm not nearly as discriminating, I guess!

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I think fermented lemonade would be about 1% abv. I wonder if Creamy Goodness knows about 'pruno'.

So where's the cutoff? 51% fruit by weight?

Why no hooch forum? Slippery slope to folks discussing washes? I'm actually interested in trying some rhubarb wine, but even though it's your recipe, I'm weary of anything in the same forum with Skeeter Pee. I accidentally drank some at NHC. Gah!

But, you gotta admit...Skeeter Pee is pretty darn good!!!!

TNGabe said:

I think fermented lemonade would be about 1% abv. I wonder if Creamy Goodness knows about 'pruno'.

So where's the cutoff? 51% fruit by weight?

Why no hooch forum? Slippery slope to folks discussing washes? I'm actually interested in trying some rhubarb wine, but even though it's your recipe, I'm weary of anything in the same forum with Skeeter Pee. I accidentally drank some at NHC. Gah!

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Fermented lemonade is actually quite high in ABV- due to the sugar. There is a TON of sugar in lemonade!

guscampag said:

But, you gotta admit...Skeeter Pee is pretty darn good!!!!

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Well, no, it's not. I don't like it a bit.

Yooper said:

Fermented lemonade is actually quite high in ABV- due to the sugar. There is a TON of sugar in lemonade!

Well, no, it's not. I don't like it a bit.

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I use 2 cups of sugar per gallon of lemonade, which i guess is about 1.042, so yes, a good bit higher than 1%, and that's probably less sugar than most.

I'll agree with Yoop 110% on this one. SP is not to my liking in the least.

Fermented fruit

passedpawn said:

Because we don't have a hooch forum.

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Why don't we have a hooch forum?

Wyrmwood said:

Why don't we have a hooch forum?

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I haven't been involved in any discussion of such a forum, though that discussion might have taken place.

For the record, I define hooch as alcoholic drink made mainly from grocery store drinks that are mostly water and sugar and not pure fruit juice.

My opinion is that hooch is not worthy of this type of forum. I'm not saying that Skeeterpee or other types of hooch don't taste good. But I think that taking Walmart Koolaid or lemonade or whatever, and a load of sugar, and turning it into alcohol does not really require much effort.

Now, that should stoke the fire.

passedpawn said:

I haven't been involved in any discussion of such a forum, though that discussion might have taken place.

For the record, I define hooch as alcoholic drink made mainly from grocery store drinks that are mostly water and sugar and not pure fruit juice.

My opinion is that hooch is not worthy of this type of forum. I'm not saying that Skeeterpee or other types of hooch don't taste good. But I think that taking Walmart Koolaid or lemonade or whatever, and a load of sugar, and turning it into alcohol does not really require much effort.

Now, that should stoke the fire.

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I made some apple wine with distiller's yeast. It is nearly 2 years old and every time I get it out I say to myself, "Wow, that's awful". Does that count as hooch?

passedpawn said:

I haven't been involved in any discussion of such a forum, though that discussion might have taken place.

For the record, I define hooch as alcoholic drink made mainly from grocery store drinks that are mostly water and sugar and not pure fruit juice.

My opinion is that hooch is not worthy of this type of forum. I'm not saying that Skeeterpee or other types of hooch don't taste good. But I think that taking Walmart Koolaid or lemonade or whatever, and a load of sugar, and turning it into alcohol does not really require much effort.

Now, that should stoke the fire.

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While it's true that a bunch of sugar or things with sugar in them (ketchup, fake honey packets, corn syrup) will ferment, since this is a forum dedicated to making craft quality beverages I doubt "hooch" fits into our vision of this forum.

I'm sure there are places on the internet that discuss jenkem, pruno, and other prison hooches so we don't need to duplicate that! There are plenty of internet sites (I assume) that can provide that information to those inclined.

I spend alot of time and energy (and money at times) on making quality fermenteds. Sure, I've made hard lemonade (my daughter loves it) but for the most part I make wines, meads, and ciders that I can share with people who appreciate it.

While rhubarb wine (as an example) might not be to everyone's taste, any more than saison is, it's still a well made wine that ages well.

Which, in a circular way takes us back to the OP's original question- what is "wine"?

Yooper said:

Which, in a circular way takes us back to the OP's original question- what is "wine"?

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Perhaps etymology might shed light on this subject.

English "wine" is, as many of you know, derived, via Old High German, from Latin "vinum". According to the OED, Latin derived the word via primitive - armenian *woiniyo.

This makes sense since the earliest winery was found in modern day Armenia, see Nat Geo article here.

(also from OED) The word is related to many Semitic language words (Arabic, Ethiopic 'wain', Hebrew 'yayin', Assyrian 'înu').

In all languages, as in the Armenian cave, the word "wine" (and cognates) refer specifically to fermented grapes.

In English, it is not until 1398 that there is any definitive reference to another fermented fruit being called "wine." John Trevisa:
"Wyne ymade is ymade by crafte of good spicery & herbes. And it fareþ of þe wyn þat hatte Salinacum & of þe wyn þat hatte rosatum & Gariofilatum"

see also 1542 entry "All maner of wynes be made of grapes, excepte respyse, the whiche is made of a bery."

Thus, linguistically speaking, "wine" is only "wine" if it is from a grape.

personally speaking, if it ain't 'cider', 'beer', 'sake' or 'liquor', I call it wine. Even if its hoochy. Even grape wine can be hooch, look at Boone's Farm and Thunderbird.

Edit: OED= Oxford English Dictionary "wine" n.1, etymology, and sense 2. oed.com

I wouldn't say that only grape fermented products should be classified as wine. There are many other fruits like blackberries, blueberries, peaches, strawberries etc....that make nice high quality beverages and because these beverages are made using the same or similar process as beverages made from grapes, I think they should all be considered wines.

I know plenty of winery's that produce wines other then grape wine and on there labels it reads "strawberry wine" It doesn't say "alcoholic strawberry beverage".


Also I believe "hooch" is actually an old fashioned name for moonshine, which is a distilled product and not a wine.

Fermented drinks made from fruits and vegetables, but not grain, are called wine with a modifier (strawberry wine, beet wine, etc.).

I do think, from a historical standpoint (and linguistic standpoint) the word "wine" means "fermented alcoholic grape beverage", and so if we are going to be persnickity about language, we should at least be correct in our persnickitiness.

I remembered there was something to your connection of moonshine and "hooch", and you are right, sort of.

"hooch" is a derivative of "Hoochinoo", which is the name of both a former Alaskan Aboriginal tribe of Admirality Island and the name of the distilled liquor they made and sold to soldiers in the area. (from OED)

I say wine is fermented fruit without heating anything. You need heat to make beer or liquor. Quality of wine is a different subject. Mad dog 20/20 is not from napa valley

slimbiggins said:

I say wine is fermented fruit without heating anything. You need heat to make beer or liquor. Quality of wine is a different subject. Mad dog 20/20 is not from napa valley

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ciders are made without heat. Oh, and every wine recipe in the index calls for you to heat up water to melt sugar to boost ABV.

I know... I'm being picky; but that is kind of what this thread seems to be about.

slimbiggins said:

I say wine is fermented fruit without heating anything. You need heat to make beer or liquor. Quality of wine is a different subject. Mad dog 20/20 is not from napa valley

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Oh, then that blows my dandelion wine recipe and banana wine out of "wine" making. Heat extraction is common for some wine styles, although not all of course.

Yooper said:

Oh, then that blows my dandelion wine recipe and banana wine out of "wine" making. Heat extraction is common for some wine styles, although not all of course.

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Roger that on the heat extraction. I learned something new. I just use spring water making wine. I use to boil, but that is such a pain to do