High OG for Mead?

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Thunder_Chicken

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I just put together a 1-gallon batch of simple mead with Montrachet yeast and I think I may have overdone the amount of honey.

The mixture is 3 lbs of clover honey with 3 qts. of water yielding a total volume of 1 gallon. I did not take a hydrometer reading but from the definition of gravity I have 9 lbs of must (3 lbs of honey and 6 lbs of water) occupying the volume normally occupied by 8 lbs of water, so my OG must be 9/8 = 1.125.

I used these amounts as I have read 3 lbs per gallon is a typical amount of honey, but I think this may mean 3 lbs per gallon of water, which would give a gravity of (3 lb + 8lb)/(2 lb + 8lb) more like 1.100.

From what I've heard Montrachet is good up to about 13% ABV and so this amount of honey would leave me with a sweet mead, but perhaps now it will be too sweet. If I had an OG of 1.100 it would finish up with an FG of about 1.010, but with an OG of 1.125 it will peter out at 1.040. That sounds pretty sweet to me as that would be a fair gravity for an ale wort.

This batch is for SWMBO and she likes sweet meads, but I am concerned that this is going to be like drinking honey syrup and perhaps might be overwhelmingly sticky sweet.

If the consensus is that this will be an OK sweet mead then I'll let it ride. Otherwise I'll need to think about what to do with this batch. Options would be to add 1 qt of boiled and cooled water to the must, but then I'll have 1.25 gallons and will need to figure out a new fermenter with appropriate headspace, or maybe repitching with a different yeast once the Montrachet runs its course, or even perhaps bottle-pasteurizing the current must and repitching new yeast. Any thoughts?
 
3 lbs honey per 1 gal volume is pretty standard, and yes, 1.125 could potentially be right but probably a bit high. Without a gravity measurement, you're really flying in the dark... The pppg contribution of honey varies a bit from as low as 35 or 36 to as high as 42...I generally use about 38 for estimations, so I would guess that you're probably down in the 1.1teens.

Yeast doesn't know what it's rated tolerance is, so what you'll end up with depends on your fermentation conditions...if you're using proper nutrients and aerated well, and degas during primary you could push the FG down farther than you think. Fortunately with 5 gm dry yeast in a gallon, you actually have a good pitch rate, and if you rehydrated the yeast first, so much the better...

Without nutrients and other good fermentation management...well, you could stick even higher than 1.040...

If you do end up too sweet, you could consider making a very dry mead to back blend to taste before bottling...
 
The OG gravity must have been right about 1.125, straight from the known weights and volumes of the honey and water.

I did aerate by vigorously sloshing and shaking the jug as I added the must. I did hydrate the yeast per package directions. I also chopped and boiled a 1/4 cup of preservative-free raisins and added them.

If I were to make a dry mead to blend, wouldn't the yeast in the dry batch (likely still alive as they were able to attenuate to dryness) start fermenting the surplus honey in the current batch? Not that this is a bad solution, but if I were to do that without additives I would have to wait for the fermentation in the blend to complete before bottling, right?
 
If you didnt wait you would end up with either grenade bottles or a sparkling mead. I do a lot of high starting gravity meads. I find that adding nutrient supplements helps the yeast bring the gravity down I add adictions the first few days if neccisary but I also make big starters for my high gravity meads.
 
The OG gravity must have been right about 1.125, straight from the known weights and volumes of the honey and water.

You can't tell your OG from weight of honey and volume! You're assuming your honey contributed 42 gravity points per pound per gallon (pppg), and I'm telling you, not all honey has that much sugar! 1.038 pppg is much more average, and it can be even a little lower than that. I honestly have never come across a honey that actually is 1.042 pppg, although for some reason that's what some recipe calculators are set at... The only way to know your OG (and subsequently estimate your ABV) is to actually measure your OG! From there you can back calculate the true PPPG for your particular honey (which can be useful if you have a larger amount of honey from a given source that you will make multiple batches from.)

I did aerate by vigorously sloshing and shaking the jug as I added the must. I did hydrate the yeast per package directions. I also chopped and boiled a 1/4 cup of preservative-free raisins and added them.

Good so far, but mead does best with staggered nutrient additions...you may want to consider adding more nutrients over the first 2-3 days of fermentation. Raisins will add some nutrients, but probably aren't enough on their own.

If I were to make a dry mead to blend, wouldn't the yeast in the dry batch (likely still alive as they were able to attenuate to dryness) start fermenting the surplus honey in the current batch? Not that this is a bad solution, but if I were to do that without additives I would have to wait for the fermentation in the blend to complete before bottling, right?

Only if you don't stabilize the sweet mead...but yes, if you didn't add sorbate and metabisulfate, you could potentially restart fermentation.
 
You can't tell your OG from weight of honey and volume!

Yes you can; that is the fundamental definition of specific gravity.

3 lbs of honey occupied one quart.
6 lbs of water were added yielding a total volume of 1 gallon.

I have 9 lbs of must (3 lbs of honey and 6 lbs of water) occupying the volume normally occupied by 8 lbs of water, so my OG must be (9 lbs/gal)/(8 lbs/gal) = 1.125. No guessing or assuming anything at all.

Good so far, but mead does best with staggered nutrient additions...you may want to consider adding more nutrients over the first 2-3 days of fermentation. Raisins will add some nutrients, but probably aren't enough on their own.

I have some old ale yeast that I could boil and cool to add nutrients. If at all possible I'd like to do this without any chemical additions such as sulfites.

So bottom line is that this OG isn't necessarily fatal, but I will have to pay attention to keeping a good environment for the yeast?
 
Yes you can; that is the fundamental definition of specific gravity.

3 lbs of honey occupied one quart.
6 lbs of water were added yielding a total volume of 1 gallon.

I have 9 lbs of must (3 lbs of honey and 6 lbs of water) occupying the volume normally occupied by 8 lbs of water, so my OG must be (9 lbs/gal)/(8 lbs/gal) = 1.125. No guessing or assuming anything at all.



I have some old ale yeast that I could boil and cool to add nutrients. If at all possible I'd like to do this without any chemical additions such as sulfites.

So bottom line is that this OG isn't necessarily fatal, but I will have to pay attention to keeping a good environment for the yeast?

Honey contains water. Your SG estimation is off.

EDIT: To answer your question, nutrient additions are especially important for Sack strength meads. Shoot for 300+ YAN. I recently made a batch with OG of 1.145 and only gave it about 225ish YAN, it was and is still sluggishly fermenting it way to completion, even after repitching with a more ABV tolerant yeast.
 
Honey contains water. Your SG estimation is off.

Please see the link to how SG is defined. By knowing the weight of the mixture (9 lbs) and the volume (1 gallon), I can calculate a density (9 lbs/gallon). Specific gravity is the ratio of that density to that of water (8 lbs/gallon). So the specific gravity is 1.125.
 
Yes you can; that is the fundamental definition of specific gravity.

3 lbs of honey occupied one quart.
6 lbs of water were added yielding a total volume of 1 gallon.

I have 9 lbs of must (3 lbs of honey and 6 lbs of water) occupying the volume normally occupied by 8 lbs of water, so my OG must be (9 lbs/gal)/(8 lbs/gal) = 1.125. No guessing or assuming anything at all.

You are making a gross estimation: assuming that 3 lbs of honey exactly equals 1 quart, and that exactly 6 lbs of water (which is more of a constant than the honey is) is making up the remainder of the volume.

What must be understood is that some honey gives you 1.036 pppg, and if measured accurately would actually only weigh 2.9xx pounds per quart, whereas there may be some theoretical honey that actually yields 1.043 pppg and weighs 3.xxx lbs per quart of volume. These subtle but important differences between various honey varietals, or even various locations of collection for a single varietal can very easily account for a 10-15 point difference in OG.

I'm not disputing the scientific principle, you're just applying it much too literally, and with a faulty assumption (saying honey is 3 lbs per quart is is a "rule of thumb," not something that is exact or consistent from honey to honey, depending on the source, water content, etc.).

I have some old ale yeast that I could boil and cool to add nutrients. If at all possible I'd like to do this without any chemical additions such as sulfites.

Adding killed yeast is a great way to add nutrients if you don't have Fermax, DAP or some other prepared nutrient. I can respect not wanting to add sulfites, etc. You may have to really cold crash things to reduce your yeast counts, and as previously suggested, still give things some time to be very sure fermentation isn't restarting before you package...

So bottom line is that this OG isn't necessarily fatal, but I will have to pay attention to keeping a good environment for the yeast?

Yes! Since you're chugging along already, I'd start (cautiously) degassing a couple times a day to keep the dissolved CO2 down (prevents the pH from dropping as much).
 
You are making a gross estimation: assuming that 3 lbs of honey exactly equals 1 quart, and that exactly 6 lbs of water (which is more of a constant than the honey is) is making up the remainder of the volume.

Let's kill this once and for all. I measured out 3 quarts of water and put it into a pot. I put in three pounds of honey and the total volume came to be 4 quarts or 1 gallon. No rule of thumb used or applied - I measured the volumes! OG = 1.125! It would take an entire additional quart of water to bring the gravity down 25 points.

You guys are going to drive me to not drink!:drunk:

The ferment is off to the races. I give it a gentle swirl every now and again to keep the gases moving. I have the ale yeast on standby and will pitch the killed yeast when the ferment starts to slow down. I understand that this will be a long ferment and an even longer aging period. No worries with that.
 
I promise I'm not trying to be argumentative here -- You can explain yourself over and over the same way as many times as you want...you don't seem to be seeing the subtleties that others are trying to point out.

I can see you're not going to be convinced that math does not always equal real life, and that you cannot possibly measure things so accurately that you are achieving theoretical results in your home brewery, so I would simply challenge you to do this: acquire some honey from the same source, repeat your "experiment" and *actually take a gravity reading*...report back. While you're at it, get some other different honey and do the same thing...I guarantee you the readings will not be the same.
 
To throw one more issue out: water isn't 8 lbs/gallon and this isn't even a great approximation. It is generally closer to 8.34, even using your calculations this gives you an OG of around 1.11 (9.255/8.34).
 
Let's kill this once and for all. I measured out 3 quarts of water and put it into a pot. I put in three pounds of honey and the total volume came to be 4 quarts or 1 gallon. No rule of thumb used or applied - I measured the volumes! OG = 1.125! It would take an entire additional quart of water to bring the gravity down 25 points.
then how do you explain when I used 3.25lbs of honey and enough water to equal 1 gallon I measured using a hydrometer and my gravity was 1.118?
 
I did not measure volume of honey, but considering my gallon had more total honey added by weight, and less water by weight you would think that more honey would equal a higher gravity.
and you are using a rule of thumb, you are assuming all honeys have the exact same sugar content.
 
I did not measure volume of honey, but considering my gallon had more total honey added by weight, and less water by weight you would think that more honey would equal a higher gravity.

Not if your honey was a higher percentage of water. You're assuming that the density of honey is a fixed value. It depends on the source. That is why I measured the volume.

Let me make a crazy example. Let's say I walk down to Shady Apiary and buy 3 lbs of "honey", but it is really just tinted water, and I am too excited to start mead making to notice the differences in taste and viscosity.

I pour this "honey" into a graduated pot and note that it occupies 1.5 quarts. I top off with 2.5 quarts to make an even gallon.

What would be the gravity of the mixture? It would be:

SG = Density of Mixture/Density of Water
SG = Mass of Mixture/Mass of Equivalent Volume of Water
SG = (3 lbs + 2.5*2 lbs)/(8 lbs)
SG = 1.000!

In theory this should be what you read on your hydrometer, but in reality you can't measure mass, volume, or gravity with complete perfection and so the two measurements of gravity will yield slightly different answers. That is the state of affairs when you try to measure anything.
 
For arguments sake let's use apple juice for my point. I go into my backyard and I run enough apples off my trees through a juicer to get one quart of juice. I then go to the store and buy enough Red Delicious apples and run them through the juicer to get one quart of Juice. finally I buy one quart of organic Macintosh apple juice. all three have this same gravity readings? they are all one quart of pure apple juice, they will be measured using the same hydrometer. the gravity readings will be different due to different sources,even know they are the same volume
 
For arguments sake let's use apple juice for my point. I go into my backyard and I run enough apples off my trees through a juicer to get one quart of juice. I then go to the store and buy enough Red Delicious apples and run them through the juicer to get one quart of Juice. finally I buy one quart of organic Macintosh apple juice. all three have this same gravity readings? they are all one quart of pure apple juice, they will be measured using the same hydrometer.

You need to BOTH weigh and measure the volume of each quart. The three quarts could have different gravities.
 
To throw one more issue out: water isn't 8 lbs/gallon and this isn't even a great approximation. It is generally closer to 8.34, even using your calculations this gives you an OG of around 1.11 (9.255/8.34).

Good point. 1 fluid oz. doesn't equal 1 dry ounce. I forgot this. I agree that the OG was then probably closer to 1.110.
 
I've been taking hydrometer samples and we're at 1.041 now and it is still cranking along. No off smells at all and the yeast still seems happy. I've been degassing it regularly and it has been at a consistent temperature of 68F.

Extrapolating my readings back to day 0 things seem consistent with an OG of 1.110. Montrachet's alcohol tolerance is quoted as 13% which would give me an FG of 1.021 but I hope I can drive it a little lower to the 1.015 range for a sweet mead. I'll continue to degas and baby it as much as I can.
 
Today I took another reading, 33 days in the fermenter. We're now down to 1.013 and the Montrachet yeast is still at work. If the 1.11 OG figure is correct we're just over 14% ABV. No off smells at all and it is still suspended and kicking off a good amount of CO2. I've been degassing daily. I'm starting to think that this will actually finish up very nearly dry which would be about 15.8%.
 
Today I took another reading, 33 days in the fermenter. We're now down to 1.013 and the Montrachet yeast is still at work. If the 1.11 OG figure is correct we're just over 14% ABV. No off smells at all and it is still suspended and kicking off a good amount of CO2. I've been degassing daily. I'm starting to think that this will actually finish up very nearly dry which would be about 15.8%.
Well done.

Just read the whole thread and was a little concerned about gastric ulceration :D

Your assertion of the scientific method was correct, as was those of the other posts.

Personally, I just say bollocks to it, mix it up, then use a hydrometer.....

As mass and weight need to be calculated against constants for sugar concentration to be of use when trying to crunch the numbers without a hydrometer......... and I for one, am far too lazy for all that.

Just don't sue the yeast makers for not publishing correct data about tolerance ;)

Well managed honey musts are often strange, as it doesn't seem to be too difficult to exceed the stated tolerances, even if they are worked out using grape musts......

I suppose it teaches us a little about the unpredictable nature of natural substances.....

Now we'll just need the update of whether HMV declares it too dry or not. I don't use Redstar yeasts generally so whether it will recover any "perception of sweetness" with ageing, I wouldn't like to guess
 
I've used as much as four pounds per gallon with an OG around 1.144. I currently have two batches running with over three pounds per gallon. I guess wine folks would call them "sickeningly" sweet. But I'm not making wine.
 
Well done.
Just don't sue the yeast makers for not publishing correct data about tolerance ;)

Well managed honey musts are often strange, as it doesn't seem to be too difficult to exceed the stated tolerances, even if they are worked out using grape musts......

I suppose it teaches us a little about the unpredictable nature of natural substances.....

Now we'll just need the update of whether HMV declares it too dry or not. I don't use Redstar yeasts generally so whether it will recover any "perception of sweetness" with ageing, I wouldn't like to guess

It is still sweetish, but the alcohol is definitely noticeable. Honey-flavored firewater, but no detectable off flavors or smells. Whatever gravity it ends up at, it will need a nice long age in the bottle simply due to the alcohol, but there isn't anything really to harsh about it other than that.

I'm not fussed with the yeast - it feels like a bit of a victory in that we're over the quoted "limit" and it is still attenuating without any bad flavors or smells. It still is burping the airlock fairly regularly and there are nice streams of bubbles coming up the sides of the carboy. I'm impressed that it is still cranking away.

I guess we'll know where it levels out in another few weeks. I'll post when it gets there and drops clear.
 
41 days in, SG = 1.008, just about 15% ABV. Gravity is still moving but I think the yeast are starting to quit and fall out. There is less yeasty flavor to the sample and the upper few inches of the carboy are clearing. The honey flavor is vivid and the alcohol is surprisingly mellow. I'm really psyched, this is going to be a nice mead I think.

I'm continuing to degas and rouse the yeast up daily, but we're getting close to the finish.
 
There doesn't seem to be any consensus about when to rack. Nor does anybody seem to have any empirical support to back their opinions on the subject. My own opinion on the subject is that racking isn't critical. The fruit won't rot in all that alcohol. And it seems that the current thinking is that yeast autolysis isn't really a problem in small fermenters because the yeast aren't under the same pressure as in a huge commercial fermenter.

I think my new plan is to not bother with a secondary unless I'm adding something to the mead. Otherwise I'm just going to let it clarify in the primary and then put it straight into bottles.
 
Day 69, racked onto Campden tablet dissolved in about a cup of boiled water. Gravity has flatlined at 1.006. The warm sample from the bucket dregs was pretty good - alcohol hotness is much diminished and the honey flavor and sweetness is very noticeable. Chilled this would be pretty darned good.

It's pretty clear, but I'll let it go for a while in the gallon carboy before I bottle. I think it has a bit more clearing to do yet.

Mead 06202013 002.jpg


Mead 06202013 003.jpg
 
Day 74 - half a campden tablet and sorbate dissolved in 1/4 cup of warmed mead, bottled. My first mead and first wine bottle corking session. Yield was 4 full bottles for aging, one half bottle and an ounce or two in a glass from the bottling bucket in the fridge.

Thanks to all!

Mead 06252013.jpg
 
Not sure if it's the light or the background, but they still look a little cloudy. Any idea what ABV you ended up with?
 
About 15% ABV if the OG estimate is correct, which I think it is. The bottles are from the LHBS and don't have the smoothest surfaces and there is a light frosted effect. I checked the mead with a flashlight in the carboy before I bottled and it looked clean and there were no lees on the bottom. I had a couple big stray floaties (probably from the raisins) that made it past the racking, so I put one of those metal coffee filters in the bottom of my bottling bucket and ran the mead through that as I racked.

One thing I am a little concerned about is the taste. The sample I pulled at the first racking last week was wonderful (albeit definitely young). The sample that I had at bottling wasn't anywhere near as good, but I can't put my finger on what changed. I added one campden tablet at the racking last week and 1/2 tablet yesterday at bottling, along with a 1/4 teaspoon of potassium sorbate. I've since read that higher ABV wines do not require so much K-sorbate, but that amount should still be fine for 1-gallon. I don't think these additions are the cause of the change as I didn't detect any sulfur or other chemical tastes. The mead just tasted more hoochy than it did last week, almost like it reversed age somehow.
 
Just reading this post with intrest as I have just started my Mead off using:

2kg Honey
3 tsp Yeat Nutrient + energizer
1 pkt Youngs High alcohol dessert yeast
Spring water
= 1Gal

Now my SG=1.130 !! Ish went off the scale slightly so yhis is an estimate.
Whats the best way to stop this at my FG or shall I just ferment out. Don't realy want any chem tastes altho never had that problem in the past. To hand i have campden tabs and wine stabilizer I can always backsweeten with more honey .
Any suggestion.
1st mead so want to go the right way with this one.
Will be chucking in
1 vanil pod
1 cin stick in secondary for a further month or 2 before bottling
Tia
 
Don't feel bad. I have bees and made my first batch of mead. My first gravity reading was 1.130 this was the same 1 gal recipe. I used orange peels black tea and raisins in a super strong tea I added for nutrition. I will take another reading in 29 days. Mayne we are getting pure honey. Mine is straight from my hives. Everyone I've asked said I took a bad reading. I took it 3 times from 3 different samples. I added a 18% tolerance yeast hopefully it drys out. If not I will restart the process again. I'm even keeping a diary. Maybe we have a higher standard honey.. please let me know your later readings so we can compare.
 
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