Brewing School

Hey everybody,

I'm interested in attending a brewing school or program, and am unsure of where to begin looking. I've been brewing for two years now, and have been exposed to my father's brewing since before I can remember. The problem is, I have no relevant official schooling in the sciences beyond high school. I've been keeping up on my math and chemistry skills and literacy, but have nothing in writing to show for this. Many programs I've come across require prerequisites in paper, rather than ability.

I was wondering if anybody had suggestions, ideas, or past experience with programs or courses which didn't necessarily require a paper trail of previous classes. Brewing (like many of you) is my passion. It's the one thing that I excel at, and the only career I can see myself truly being happy in. Hell, there are plenty of breweries opening up or looking for help in my area. I'd shovel grains for the experience, but getting a job in the beer industry? Every frat boy wants that, and with no paper trail to my name, I'm on an equal footing with these individuals.

Essentially, I want to increase my knowledge further, while getting a brewing related paper trail to boost my chances of getting into the industry (even if it's only for a grain shoveling position). Does anybody know of anything useful for this purpose? Afterall, passion only gets us so far in life.


(I apologise if this is in the wrong forum. I assume that since the question covers schooling, courses, or certifications related to brewing science, this falls into this category.

I know people who have taken Siebel courses and liked it. They do traditional courses as well as online. http://www.siebelinstitute.com/

Oklahoma University has a free beer chemistry online course that starts in 2014.
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My impression is that any break in to the brewing industry involves grain shoveling or similar menial work (delivery, maybe sales?).

Sounds like you have your HS degree but no college-would this not be the tier of jobs you are qualified for anyway?

There is a reason their prerequisites list things like college math and science...it is because they are teaching those classes at a level where you need to skills already in order to do well.

The advantage you had is that you aren't over-qualified; there are plenty of college-educated guys on here who are asking the same question you are, I think they get discouraged when they hear the above answer.

The question for you is: To what length are you willing to go to break into the industry? Are you willing to shovel wet grains for awhile?

Start with the siebel courses online. They are great. You can work at your own pace and you learn plenty and you will be caught up on that higher level science you are missing. Many breweries will appreciate, respect and hold you at a higher regard for having siebel training (or any training at that matter).

As for experience. Swing by any of the breweries you mentioned that are opening up in your area and talk to the head brewer, cellar manager production manager. tell them you would like experience and would sweep, clean tank legs, oil the equipment. Just put yourself out there!

brewmax25 said:

Start with the siebel courses online. They are great. You can work at your own pace and you learn plenty and you will be caught up on that higher level science you are missing.

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I see your point about taking advantage of online classes to catch up, but I'm not sure that works if the class requires broadly-based math, science, and chemistry knowledge. You can "wiki" alot of things for the details, but it takes a significant amount of time to develop a foundation of scientific knowledge to excel in more applied classwork (which I assume this is).

brewmax25 said:

Many breweries will appreciate, respect and hold you at a higher regard for having siebel training (or any training at that matter).

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I have first-hand knowledge of one brewery in my area that does not hold Siebel training in high regard, at least for entry level positions. I don't think it would exclude you from consideration, but it wouldn't put you at an advantage. Maybe this brewery is an exception, but common sense would say you don't need specialized training to slop out mash-tuns and scrub stainless.[/QUOTE]

brewmax25 said:

As for experience. Swing by any of the breweries you mentioned that are opening up in your area and talk to the head brewer, cellar manager production manager. tell them you would like experience and would sweep, clean tank legs, oil the equipment. Just put yourself out there!

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I agree with this....networking is key. If you intend this to be a career, you will be most likely be working with all of these folks at some point.

Another option would be to get in at the ground-level, do the scut work, show promise, be promoted and see if they will send you to Siebel on their dime. Good companies recognize loyalty and the professional development of their employees. If you can do the job with Siebel, then why bother in the first place?

UC Davis offers several brewing courses.
http://extension.ucdavis.edu/unit/brewing/

This is the University of Oklahoma online free courses btw, for the beer chemistry

https://janux.ou.edu/

I suggest working at a brewery, in any department, for at least 1 year before attending formal education. I also suggest local community college classes in Chemistry/food science/engineering.

At my first brewery, I would mash-in and head to Food Science Class for an hour before returning to lauter.....

I am a big fan of anything U.C. Davis since that is where I did my undergraduate degree . Look around, there are many schools cropping up and I am guessing that lots of feedback is out there. Check the Brewers Association web site, I believe that they have a brewing school directory. Good Luck.

I've heard Portland State, Oregon State, and Colorado Sate University all have Fermentation Science Degrees now.

Where are you located, and would you be willing to relocate?

EDIT: I'm also curious what your long term goal is. Do you want to be a head brewer, open your own brewery, work for a large company, a small company, work in a lab?

PDX_T said:

Where are you located, and would you be willing to relocate?

EDIT: I'm also curious what your long term goal is. Do you want to be a head brewer, open your own brewery, work for a large company, a small company, work in a lab?

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@PDX_T, I'm curious to know what your relocating offer might be as I am located in PDX...?

nextgenxx said:

@PDX_T, I'm curious to know what your relocating offer might be as I am located in PDX...?

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Haha!! I wish I could make such an offer.

You have options here, but the market is crowded, so it may be tough. Go to OSU and study fermentation science, biochemistry, or microbiology if you have an aptitude for science and school. Try to get a lab job, they pay better. You will have to be willing to move, most likely. I know people who have moved all over the country for brewing jobs, and even a guy who studied internationally.

Otherwise, make friends with every brewpub in town. Learn who the people are, volunteer your time for bottling, keg cleaning, or serving for special events. I know a few people who have done that.

If you have experience as a bartender or server, try getting hired at McMennamins or some other pub and try to volunteer in the brewery on your own time.

Personally, I studied biochemistry in college and got a job in a brewery lab after working in a different industry for 5 years and getting laid off. I called almost every brewery and brewpub in the Metro area and struck out, but I found this job posted online, and was lucky to have the skill set they were interested in.

But let me warn you: it's not peaches and cream, the hours are often harsh, it can be a physically demanding job depending on how low-tech your operation is, and it doesn't pay as well as an equivalent position in a different industry.

I'll second PDX_T's warning. You'll get paid very little and work very hard.

I was offered a job as an assistant brewer in a small midwestern microbrewery. Without a formal brewing education, I have all the science knowledge, QC skills, physical ability and enthusiasm to do the job, but in the end I had to turn the job down because it was so very low pay.

If you truly want to get into a career in brewing, take a few classes in chemistry and algebra at your nearest college or technical college and then consider the program at the American Brewers Guild. I've spoken to a few headbrewers about it and they wouldn't hesitate hiring graduates from ABG over some other programs. It's a great program and you can network with and possibly work at a local brewpub in your area while going through the Craft Brewers Apprenticeship program.

I would urge any person who looking for training in a particular field to thoroughly vet the specific program in which they are applying.

Just because a particular university offers a particular program doesn't mean it is good, is well-regarded in the marketplace, or even necessary in the first place.

I would be asking....who graduates from these programs?

Those that do attain this credential, what is their placement rate in the marketplace, in particular in the field for which they are trained?

What sort of careers does this training qualify you for?

How long has the program been around?

Are there key opinion leaders in the field who have this academic credential, or if not, what do they think of it?

If there is an online-option, is that as well regarded as the classroom version?

If it is a certificate or workshop training, what does this qualify you to do?

I'm all for education, but the academic marketplace has gotten much more complicated as of late with online classes, certificate programs, online-universities and the such. Even established universities and colleges are diversifiing their programs to such a degree that you really have to wonder what the quality is.

Tread carefully, my feeling is there are more than a few programs out there that offer training that isn't worth the paper their credential is printed on. I can't imagine the brewing training programs are any different.

I'll get off my soapbox now, I just felt this needed to be said in response to everyone's recommendation the OP get training so he can go slop mashtuns for his local brewery.

You'd all laugh at me if I recommended certificate training to go work at a farm, but its basically the same work if you take an entry brewing position....moving grain from one place to another, cleaning, etc...

broadbill said:

I'll get off my soapbox now, I just felt this needed to be said in response to everyone's recommendation the OP get training so he can go slop mashtuns for his local brewery. You'd all laugh at me if I recommended certificate training to go work at a farm, but its basically the same work if you take an entry brewing position....moving grain from one place to another, cleaning, etc...

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I can't disagree with your sentiment, but a person with formal training (ESPECIALLY in microbiology) has a lot more to offer than one without. We've got guys working at our brewery with no formal training, but I know of one brewery in Portland who has put all of it's brewers through the BGA course, and wouldn't hire anyone who couldn't qualify and pass that certification, and our brewery strives to send people to the two week MBAA course as often as possible.

Different opportunities present themselves to those who have formal training in either brewing specifically or a related scientific discipline.

Not to mention the fact that other industries find those skills desirable.

stamandster said:

This is the University of Oklahoma online free courses btw, for the beer chemistry

https://janux.ou.edu/

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Thanks for that! I wasn't even looking but I am enrolled now... thanks to you! I'm from Arkansaw so I hope the crayons are included (lol)!

broadbill said:

Sounds like you have your HS degree but no college-would this not be the tier of jobs you are qualified for anyway?

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That's kind of a dick thing to say.

davekippen said:

That's kind of a dick thing to say.

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I guess its a dick thing to say if you think those are bad jobs to have. I don't think those are bad jobs but I guess you do. I have alot of respect for those people who do jobs other people are unwilling to do (i.e. the "Dirty Jobs" of Mike Rowe fame).

Regardless-I am wrong about that is the level of job he is qualified for, in today's world, with a high school degree? Or did you just want to call me a dick?

PDX_T said:

I can't disagree with your sentiment, but a person with formal training (ESPECIALLY in microbiology) has a lot more to offer than one without.

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Sure, as does someone who has a college degree over one without...not arguing that.

PDX_T said:

We've got guys working at our brewery with no formal training, but I know of one brewery in Portland who has put all of it's brewers through the BGA course, and wouldn't hire anyone who couldn't qualify and pass that certification, and our brewery strives to send people to the two week MBAA course as often as possible.

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That's great, so why are people recommending the OP get a BGA cert (and pay for it themselves) when breweries are willing to pay for it when they join the company? Its obviously not necessary to get the job.

PDX_T said:

Different opportunities present themselves to those who have formal training in either brewing specifically or a related scientific discipline.

Not to mention the fact that other industries find those skills desirable.

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This is a good point....somebody with general microbiology training may be qualified for either a brewery job or a job in a research lab. Someone with the BGA cert may be qualified for a brewery job, but maybe not in a research lab necessarily. If you had the money to spend on one, which would you go with?

I guess that is my point about certificates, even when they are valid forms of training.

To imply that because one does not have a degree, they are only qualified to shovel mash or wash floors is the most arrogant thing i've heard on HBT in a long time. It doesn't matter if you respect those jobs or not.

End thread hijack

I'm going to take this in a different direction and let the OP know that if he is creating recipes, making great beer, understands a commercial system and has a good business plan there is no formal education required to start and be develop a successful brewery. I know 5 people personally that have done it and they are growing leaps and bounds.

This is assuming that this is the direction he wants to go in

davekippen said:

To imply that because one does not have a degree, they are only qualified to shovel mash or wash floors is the most arrogant thing i've heard on HBT in a long time. It doesn't matter if you respect those jobs or not.

End thread hijack

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You are right, he should expect to slip in as head brewmaster, right from the start.

The REALITY is that there are college graduates these days willing to slop mash tuns to get a break into the brewing industry. Heck, there is another thread on this board about a guy contemplating leaving his cushy white-collar job to start in the industry.

Where does this leave the guy with only the HS diploma?

Or are you upset that I told this guy the straight truth instead of giving a rump-swat and blowing smoke up his ass about how qualified he is?

I guess you want to pretend that only having a HS degree isn't as limiting to someone's successful as we all know it is?

I recently (October 19-November 1 2013) took the on campus Concise Course in Brewing Technologies (2 weeks in Chicago as opposed to 3 months online...same price as online + expenses). I would recommend this class to anyone considering going pro. I am enrolled in the Master Brewer Program which will begin in February and end late July, and once I come back and get my own thing going, the Concise Course (on campus) will be budgeted into the capital expenses for any hands on partners/brewers I have join the team.

It was intense (9am-5pm M-F) with each day broken into one hour (a few presentations lasted 3 hours) lectures. When the 2 weeks was up, we had touched on literally every aspect of commercial beer brewing, from safety to packaging and everything in between. We also had several sensory panels (Budweisers spiked with off flavors) as well as styles tastings, and that was pretty cool. The concise course and Master Brewer program get a lot of material from the Kunze book (which I am working my way through now in preparation for next year).

The teachers were great. One was the brewmaster for AB for 27 years at various factories, and brought that knowledge to the table. He was much better on the production side of things than he was on the raw materials, but that was no big deal. Another was Matt Bryndison (sp?) brew master at Firestone Walker. What an incredible knowledge base that guy was. Another teacher had gone through the Diploma program a few years ago, and has worked in the industry since, and he brought a real life "been there done that" kinda knowledge base to the table. Keith was hilarious, and Lyn, the president was awesome.

We had a South Korean, a few mexicans (Modelo), 2 canadians, a guy from Israel, a guy from MillerCoors, quality control girl from Kona, people who had never brewed before, people from Smirnoff parents company Diago, homebrewers, and people working in the industry on all size systems.

Siebel's new facility is in the bottom floor of Kendall College, which is a pretty awesome culinary school. For $5/meal you could choose from one of three food areas: the cafeteria (where I ate exclusively) which had several stations and things ranging from beef and barley soup to reubens to lobster (yes, good lobster for $5); the quick serve restaurant (order at one counter, pick up at the other), and a sit down restaurant that you could have wine at, with servers and the whole nine yards (you had to make a reservation...yes, for $5). The Kendall faculty was nice enough (once we learned the no hats in the cafeteria rule), and the students were friendly. Many conversations were started based on our name tags and that we were brewers. As a Siebel student, we also got discounts at some local establishments (20% off at goose island, 10% off at haymarket and some hotdog place).

The most fun part was the bier stube, which was the free (well, you paid a **** load for it) beer on tap and in the fridge just about 15 feet from the classroom door. We would go up and eat lunch, and come back down and have beers, go back to class, sometimes have beers in between classes, and after classes, the teachers would come out and drink with us and we could pretty much ask them about anything. During the school hours we were on a pretty tight schedule, so while discussions and questions were encouraged, we had to keep the class moving, so we could revisit topics and talk specifics after class.

The "books" were 2 inch binders packed to the gills. One for each week. It was kind of intimidating, but once you figured out what worked best for you (some had binders and a spiral, some binders and laptop and spiral, some taking notes in binder, etc) it wasn't too bad. There was one test at the end of the 2 weeks. We definitely had to study, but if you have commercial brewing experience, you have a jump on the game. The last 8 months or so working in a brewery really gave me a good base of knowledge to build upon.

If you are serious about brewing, and want to do it on a commercial scale, for yourself or someone else, I would highly recommend the class.

Hope this helps. feel free to PM me (i don't get on here often though, so email is probably best bet) or email me at motleybrews at gmail dot com if you have any specific questions and i will do my best to answer.

Pics:
the books
sensory
beer styles tasting
the bier stube
i was using the binder and an iPad at one point

Hey guys. I had forgotten that I had posted this thread. I apologise for necroing it, but I wanted to update everybody.

I put myself out there as heavily as possible. I applied at everything from breweries to bottling plants to wineries. Eventually I applied for a job working a farmers' market for a winery that is actually located 5 minutes from my house (Previously I had NO idea there was even a winery in my town). I lucked out because the person who had originally gotten the position over me wasn't showing up to work on time, and walked off of the job when he was talked to about it. I got in and showed up 10 to 15 minutes early every day, did my work well, and eventually the owner (Who is also the head vintner) tried one of the meads that I had made and loved it. He talked to me for about 3 hours on everything I knew about beer, mead, and wine.

He was impressed with my knowledge and based on how well I was doing with the farmers market, he offered me a management position which included being involved with the winemaking process. So now, I'm an assistant winemaker as well as manager.

I'm grateful for everything I've gotten, and while I'm not humble enough to think that luck was the ONLY reason I got my current position... my luck is by far the biggest reason that I now have my dream job. Thank you to everybody who posted. You all gave me enough motivation to just get out there and try to get my foot in the door. I'm currently doing a number of wine related classes as part of my job, and have had access to all sorts of information.

Thank you to everybody who posted.