Dry Yeast Contamination problems?

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Have you seen increased risk of infection in Dry yeast vs. Liquid yeast?

  • Yes, forget dry yeast!

  • No, it is just as safe these days!

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HiGravShawn

HiGravShawn

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When I started started brewing it was with Safale dry yeasts and I had good results, but fairly quickly I moved to liquid yeasts for variety and better flocculation. I still have one or two original recipes I used safale for though. I am very careful with sanitation and have the same process in every brew day. I've been brewing 2-3 a month for about 13 months with no problem and yesterday I opened a fermenter to contamination (this)! Back when I started brewing and people were comparing dry vs. liquid they would say the drying process allowed bacteria to contaminate dry yeast and it had a greater chance of contamination. Others denied that claim or said it was from back in the day and processes had improved. Now I know I'm not above reproach and there could have been an undocumented slip in my procedure or just something missed, but I want to know if this is a fact. I put too much time/money/energy into brewing to have 10 gallons go south like this over simply using dry yeast. I now use many yeasts, harvest them, and even maintain a frozen yeast bank without issue so to have a $2 pack ruin that much beer is unacceptable. What has been your experience (notice I say experience, NOT opinion).
 
That idea that Dry yeast is inferior to liquid yeast is SO 20-30 years ago that very few folks would agree with that statement today. Modern yeast manufacturers regardless of whehter they are producing liquid or dry yeast, are state of the art facilities with (for the most part) quality control.

Most of them have commercial divisions and many many commercial breweries use dry yeast. Do you think they would put their bank on bad yeast????

Even John Palmer talks about this...He doesn't bash dry yeast, just points out the differences.

6.3 Yeast Forms

Yeast come in two main product forms, dry and liquid. (There is also another form, available as pure cultures on petri dishes or slants, but it is generally used as one would use liquid yeast.) Dry yeast are select, hardy strains that have been dehydrated for storability. There are a lot of yeast cells in a typical 7 gram packet. For best results, it needs to be re-hydrated before it is pitched. For the first-time brewer, a dry ale yeast is highly recommended.

Dry yeast is convenient for the beginning brewer because the packets provide a lot of viable yeast cells, they can be stored for extended periods of time and they can be prepared quickly on brewing day. It is common to use one or two packets (7 - 14 grams) of dried yeast for a typical five gallon batch. This amount of yeast, when properly re-hydrated, provides enough active yeast cells to ensure a strong fermentation. Dry yeast can be stored for extended periods (preferably in the refrigerator) but the packets do degrade with time. This is one of the pitfalls with brewing from the no-name yeast packets taped to the top of a can of malt extract. They are probably more than a year old and may not be very viable. It is better to buy another packet or three of a reputable brewer's yeast that has been kept in the refrigerator at the brewshop. Some leading and reliable brands of dry yeast are DCL Yeast, Yeast Labs (marketed by G.W. Kent, produced by Lallemand of Canada), Cooper's, DanStar (produced by Lallemand), Munton & Fison and Edme.

Dry yeasts are good but the rigor of the dehydration process limits the number of different ale strains that are available and in the case of dry lager yeast, eliminates them almost entirely. A few dry lager yeasts do exist, but popular opinion is that they behave more like ale yeasts than lager. DCL Yeast markets two strains of dry lager yeast, Saflager S-189 and S-23, though only S-23 is currently available in a homebrewing size. The recommended fermentation temperature is 48-59°F. I would advise you to use two packets per 5 gallon batch to be assured of a good pitching rate.

The only thing missing with dry yeast is real individuality, which is where liquid yeasts come in. Many more different strains of yeast are available in liquid form than in dry.
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The only real "criticism" of dry yeast, is that, due to how they are made to be stable, that there are not many varieties available, that and the warning to avoid those "no-name" yeasts under the lids of extract can and to go with one of the "proven" strains.

But gone is all that BS about there being contaminants and mutations in dry yeast. It's a multi billion dollar industry and MANY commercial breweries use Dry yeast, the same dry yeast that we use....and I don't think They'd risk it if they bought into that garbage.

And the idea of there being large numbers of contaminants in dry yeast is one of those myths that we have busted on here as well....pure conjecture and anti-dry yeast propaganda based on 30 year old anecdotal information back from the days when yeas tcame in cakes in hot cargo ships and was of dubious parentage.

There is a ton of threads discussing this in great detail.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/dry-yeast-profiles-descriptions-131810/?highlight=fermentis

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/dry-yeast-not-dry-yeast-question-83122/?highlight=fermentis

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f36/i-love-dry-yeast-131351/?highlight=fermentis

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f36/dry-yeast-vs-liquid-75697/?highlight=fermentis

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/there-place-dry-yeast-130508/?highlight=fermentis

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/dried-yeast-not-always-sterile-viable-91289/?highlight=fermentis


I would look to something else for your infection woe, not blaming dry yeast.
 
Thank you Revvy I appreciate the time, but I have read all that and yet I still see people talking about (online and in person) increased contaminated batches when using dry yeast. Maybe the reports are anecdotal, but so is most of what you listed there and I don't buy the "commercial uses so it must be fine argument" as many commercial+consumer businesses maintain separate departments, QA, and even locations sometimes. What I am looking for here is 1) someone who has used both a good bit and 2) whether they have more contaminated batches using dry yeast or not.
 
HiGravShawn said:
Thank you Revvy I appreciate the time, but I have read all that and yet I still see people talking about (online and in person) increased contaminated batches when using dry yeast. Maybe the reports are anecdotal, but so is most of what you listed there and I don't buy the "commercial uses so it must be fine argument" as many commercial+consumer businesses maintain separate departments, QA, and even locations sometimes. What I am looking for here is 1) someone who has used both a good bit and 2) whether they have more contaminated batches using dry yeast or not.
Click to expand...

You are working on some serious confirmation bias here. You are looking for a problem and so you will find it. You readily dismiss Revvy's ancedotal evidence, but you seem willing to believe someone else's ancedotal evidence just so long as it is telling you what you want to hear (or so it seems from the tone of your post).

So get ready to dismiss this: I use primarily dry yeast and have NEVER had a problem with contamination....EVER. I've been homebrewing off/on for over a decade.
 
broadbill said:
You are working on some serious confirmation bias here. You are looking for a problem and so you will find it. You readily dismiss Revvy's ancedotal evidence, but you seem willing to believe someone else's ancedotal evidence just so long as it is telling you what you want to hear (or so it seems from the tone of your post). .
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Yeah that is EXACTLY what I was think, in the OP's mind, "oldschool" anecdotal evidence has much more weight than current anecdotal evidence.

I just wrote on another thread about the "you can't teach an old dog new tricks" mentality. If he wants to buy into it as the cause of his infection, that's fine.

Oh well.....But that's not going to solve his infection issue...and he might realize that after he gets an infecton again despite using liquid yeast.

Besides, the kind of "mutations" he'd be more likely to find in ANY yeast regardless of liquid or dry would not be something that would cause an infection like lactobasilus or aecetobactor, it would more likely be a character trait, like Low flocculation, or slow starting (like the deal with nottingham yeast) or yeast stalling at 1.020 or something, Not an infection anyway.
 
Why is everyone dead set on being argumentative? I am not wanting confirmation I want report on experience NOT opinion as expressly stated in the OP. I could get the same info Revvy posted by searching this forum and most of those I read long ago when I started brewing. I'm asking for peoples individual experience in a poll form to make it about as scientific as I can get without brewing 1000 batches of beer myself. If people choose to vote on anecdotes instead of personal, truthful experience I can't do much about that. I would prefer to continue my recipe as-is, but want to get as much available information to avoid unnecessary waste, especially when I ahve other liquid yeast in my bank I could have used. I'm sorry if not taking your word as fact hurt your feelings.
 
HiGravShawn said:
Why is everyone dead set on being argumentative? I am not wanting confirmation I want report on experience NOT opinion as expressly stated in the OP. I could get the same info Revvy posted by searching this forum and most of those I read long ago when I started brewing. I'm asking for peoples individual experience in a poll form to make it about as scientific as I can get without brewing 1000 batches of beer myself. If people choose to vote on anecdotes instead of personal, truthful experience I can't do much about that. I would prefer to continue my recipe as-is, but want to get as much available information to avoid unnecessary waste, especially when I ahve other liquid yeast in my bank I could have used. I'm sorry if not taking your word as fact hurt your feelings.
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We're not being argumentitive, we're trying to clear up any misconceptions you might be having about dry yeast, based on the same old school thinking that produced the "dreaded autolysis" or even "hot side aeration" myths....old school thinking.

Besides, the kind of "mutations" you'd be more likely to find in ANY yeast regardless of liquid or dry would not be something that would cause an infection like lactobasilus or aecetobactor, like you are experiencing, it would more likely be a character trait, like Low flocculation, or slow starting (like the deal with nottingham yeast) or yeast stalling at 1.020 or something, Not an infection anyway.

That's going to be a sanitization issue And the only way your evil dry yeast could have caused that if the outside of the pack were unsanitary and the yeast came in contact with it, but the same could be said for the lip of a whitelabs tube or a smack pack.

But believe what you want....
 
Revvy said:
We're not being argumentitive ... But believe what you want....
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I find these statements incompatible. I asked a question. I am planning to accept the poll as the answer and yet you seem to think I'm arguing one side of it for some reason. I also have not mentioned "mutations" I am specifically talking contaminants. As for misconceptions for you to clear up, if I had had those I would not be using dry yeast now. Nothing anyone has shown me is any sort of proof beyond anecdotal that this is wholly untrue. If you had posted some sort of large scale study then I would have simply said thank you.

Let's just RDWHAHB and let the poll speak for itself. From what I'm seeing so far people have experienced what you beleive.
 
Fermentis/Safeale state the plate count parameters on their website: http://www.fermentis.com/fo/pdf/HB/EN/Safale_US-05_HB.pdf

Now I know that's generic for that particular product and not for an individual batch, but I would have to think they plate out each batch and do an analysis. If it fails, we hope they discard the lot.

I have not found the same figures for liquid yeast, so I don't know what the non-saccharomyces parameters are for, say, a strain of White Labs or Wyeast brewing yeast. But I would be surprised if they were absolutely 100% pure.
 
Also, after seeing your photos I thought I would add that those fermenters are notoriously difficult to keep clean. Looks like you have lots of experience, and you probably have a sound cleaning/sanitation process. But those plastic fermenters and their hard-to-reach indentations are really good at harboring nasties, and if they ever get scratched by a racking cane, spoon, etc., forget about it.
 
greenbirds said:
Also, after seeing your photos I thought I would add that those fermenters are notoriously difficult to keep clean. Looks like you have lots of experience, and you probably have a sound cleaning/sanitation process. But those plastic fermenters and their hard-to-reach indentations are really good at harboring nasties, and if they ever get scratched by a racking cane, spoon, etc., forget about it.
Click to expand...

This is actually what I truly believe was the issue. I have not really been happy with it a fermentation vessel and will probably decommission it for awhile. I started this poll to address things that could be investigated, without a time machine and going back and watching myself brew it I'll never guess where it got contaminated. I obviously will take extra care in future sanitation, but this is the only loose end to tie up.
 
HiGravShawn said:
What has been your experience (notice I say experience, NOT opinion).
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To date, zero infections. I'd say I've used 80% dry (mostly Safale) vs. 20% liquid.

I'd also ad that I believe that both forms of yeast have some minute level of contamination but that with proper use those are easily overwhelmed by healthy yeast. I've seen that with my Sourdough yeast cultures and think that the same is going on with beer yeast.
 

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