60% Efficiency... Why The Face??

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rancidcrabtree

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I can't figure this one out, here's what I did:

8 lbs 2 Row
1 lb Crystal 10
1 lb Carapils

All grains where milled by myself at my LHBS, they weren't exactly flour but the crush was pretty fine, each kernel was broken into at least three pieces. Mashed 60 mins in 5 gallon rubbermaid with 12.5 qts @ 150 (at least that is what my digital thermometer read from the top of the cooler after I mixed grains in). Stirred mash every 10 mins for about 1 minute each time. Got two gallons from first running, 2.75 with second, 2 with third. Pre-boil gravity was 1.032 (I verified on both refractometer and hydrometer), post boil was 1.038, I ended with almost exactly 5.5 gallons. I was hoping for at least 70% efficiency, which would put my post boil gravity around 1.046... Any ideas on what I did or didn't do to end up with such a low efficiency?
 
Moved this over from the all-grain & partial mash forum...

I can't figure this one out, here's what I did:

8 lbs 2 Row
1 lb Crystal 10
1 lb Carapils

All grains where milled by myself at my LHBS, they weren't exactly flour but the crush was pretty fine, each kernel was broken into at least three pieces. Mashed 60 mins in 5 gallon rubbermaid with 12.5 qts @ 150 (at least that is what my digital thermometer read from the top of the cooler after I mixed grains in). Stirred mash every 10 mins for about 1 minute each time. Got two gallons from first running, 2.75 with second, 2 with third. Pre-boil gravity was 1.032 (I verified on both refractometer and hydrometer), post boil was 1.038, I ended with almost exactly 5.5 gallons. I was hoping for at least 70% efficiency, which would put my post boil gravity around 1.046... Any ideas on what I did or didn't do to end up with such a low efficiency?
 
Moved this over from the all-grain & partial mash forum...

I can't figure this one out, here's what I did:

8 lbs 2 Row
1 lb Crystal 10
1 lb Carapils

All grains where milled by myself at my LHBS, they weren't exactly flour but the crush was pretty fine, each kernel was broken into at least three pieces. Mashed 60 mins in 5 gallon rubbermaid with 12.5 qts @ 150 (at least that is what my digital thermometer read from the top of the cooler after I mixed grains in). Stirred mash every 10 mins for about 1 minute each time. Got two gallons from first running, 2.75 with second, 2 with third. Pre-boil gravity was 1.032 (I verified on both refractometer and hydrometer), post boil was 1.038, I ended with almost exactly 5.5 gallons. I was hoping for at least 70% efficiency, which would put my post boil gravity around 1.046... Any ideas on what I did or didn't do to end up with such a low efficiency?

How did you sparge?
 
Moved this over from the all-grain & partial mash forum...

I can't figure this one out, here's what I did:

8 lbs 2 Row
1 lb Crystal 10
1 lb Carapils

All grains where milled by myself at my LHBS, they weren't exactly flour but the crush was pretty fine, each kernel was broken into at least three pieces. Mashed 60 mins in 5 gallon rubbermaid with 12.5 qts @ 150 (at least that is what my digital thermometer read from the top of the cooler after I mixed grains in). Stirred mash every 10 mins for about 1 minute each time. Got two gallons from first running, 2.75 with second, 2 with third. Pre-boil gravity was 1.032 (I verified on both refractometer and hydrometer), post boil was 1.038, I ended with almost exactly 5.5 gallons. I was hoping for at least 70% efficiency, which would put my post boil gravity around 1.046... Any ideas on what I did or didn't do to end up with such a low efficiency?

Not sure of your set up, but why would you stir every 10 minutes? You're letting the heat out and disturbing the grain bed. You should stir well initially and let it sit. If you let too much heat out, that could be your answer.
 
I'm not sure why I stirred so much during the mash, I guess I thought it would help get more sugar out of the grains. Set up is pretty basic, I batch sparged at 170 degrees and let it soak for 10 mins each time before draining but I didn't stir at all before draining...
 
I'm not sure why I stirred so much during the mash, I guess I thought it would help get more sugar out of the grains. Set up is pretty basic, I batch sparged at 170 degrees and let it soak for 10 mins each time before draining but I didn't stir at all before draining...

When you added the batch sparge additions, did you stir like your life depended on it, and then stir some more? That's critical to "rinse" the sugars.
 
No stirring at all, I thought letting it soak for 10 mins would do the job but obviously my lousy efficiency says otherwise! I'll make sure I stir like crazy next brew day and hopefully that will take care of the problem. I've pretty much come to terms with this being a dry and hoppy session beer, do you think adding a pound or two of honey to up the ABV a bit would be a bad idea?
 
Yeah, I calibrated it with some D.I. water from the tech college so it should be pretty accurate. Also, I checked my results against my hyrdrometer just in case there was a problem with the refractometer, it also confirmed that my process sucks.
 
I'm rather new at this but I've always been told the lower your mash temperature is, the longer you should mash in order for the enzymes to effectively convert. I typically mash for 90 minutes at 149 - 151, just to make sure I have full conversion.
 
Definitely not stirring after sparge additions is a huge one, but also a slightly longer mash and finer crush would also help. My ideal crush breaks kernels into 30 pieces rather than 3.
 
Alright, so next time I'm going to mash for 90 mins, I'm not going to stir during the mash (and risk losing heat), and I'm going to stir like my life depends on it after adding my sparge water. Also, I'm going to pick up some distilled water and calibrate with it. For today's purposes I'm going to assume that I'm off by 0.004 which would put my SG at 1.042 instead of 1.038 (this makes me feel a little better even though I know it might be completely wrong!). Thanks for all of the advice everybody!
 
I'd do a couple of things- one check the thermometer. Second, maybe not mash so low (I mash almost all of my "regular" beers at 153). I wouldn't mash for 90 minutes unless I was using a cooler temperature, and some adjuncts like oats.

And remember with the stirring during the sparge- you want to "knock" all of those sugars into suspension so you can drain them out. Think of it as a rinse in the washing machine. When you run the "rinse" cycle, the agitator still goes. Picture if it didn't- if it just filled and drained, then filled and drain. It would be an ineffective rinse, and you'd have lots of soap left in your clothes. The same is true of batch sparging. You want to add your sparge water, stir well, and then vorlauf and drain. And repeat.

You need to stir your mash when you mash in. A good way to do it is to stir like crazy, and then check the temperature in several places. If it's different, stir some more. Once the temperature is equalized throughout, cover it and walk away for 60 minutes. Opening it up over and over simply lets the heat out. Stir well (VERY well) at the beginning, and that's it.
 
My first all grain I figured 75% efficiency into the kettle, I wasn't to happy with the 63% I got either. I don't sparge so that's another subject, but I would guess with a double batch sparge you should be getting close to 80% into the kettle. At least you know you got some good numbers to work with for your next batch.
 
I don't have a refractometer (yet), so maybe this is a dumb question...but, if it's reading 1.004 in water, wouldn't he need to subtract .004 from his wort reading to compensate rather than adding it (as mentioned in a previous reply)?
 
Personally, I would continue to stir once or twice during the first 30 minutes of the mash. It's not to release the sugars, it's to make sure the enzymes get moved around enough to do their job of convert. It doesn't happen by magic. They have to run into the stuff which needs converting. Movement is good. Stirring during the sparge stage is a different animal, it does knock stuff loose, but the conversion stage is pretty much finished by then. (But then, I could be all wrong....)
 
Today was my fourth all-grain brew and my first time using the propane burner, 9 gal stockpot, and immersion chiller I got myself for Christmas. My other all-grain brews were full boils, split over multiple pots on my stove and I hit just under 70% with them (or so I thought, calculating and adding the SG's from multiple pots was a little confusing). Other than my low efficiency today's brew went awesome, the burner and pot worked great and the immersion chiller got me from boil to 55 degrees in 20 mins, having 50 degree tap water this time of year in MN probably helped a lot with that!
 
Mashing a little higher sounds like a good idea too, I was shooting for a fairly dry finished product but with my grain bill I'm guessing I'd probably get that anyways. I'm using US-04 this time, next time maybe a higher mash and US-05 to still end up fairly dry?
 
I don't have a refractometer (yet), so maybe this is a dumb question...but, if it's reading 1.004 in water, wouldn't he need to subtract .004 from his wort reading to compensate rather than adding it (as mentioned in a previous reply)?

I think you're right, it looks like I'm making some cascade flavored water!
 
I mash for 90 minutes and drain very slow. I also don't get the best efficiency so I just always add more base malt to recipes to compensate and I keep DME on hand if my preboil reading is way too low.
 
Wouldn't stirring like crazy create splashing and introduce oxygen into the wort? If I remember correctly according to Palmer introducing oxygen even in this stage is a bad thing.
 
"like crazy" is a bit of an exaggeration. The idea is to stir the sparge water in thoroughly. If introducing oxygen into the mash this was was a significant problem, no one would do it.
 
Also, what did you do with your first runnings? Did you pour them back into the mash? I usually pour 3-4 quarts back in to improve clarity, but I've noticed that when I didn't do this, it had an effect on my efficiency, all other things being constant (which admittedly is sometimes hard to do).
 
I vorlauf roughly the first gallon into a separate container and then re-circulate it through the grain bed. I'm not really sure what the point of doing it is, clarity maybe? I'm kinda learning this whole brewing (and especially all-grain) thing as I go. Just picked up The Complete Joy of Homebrewing so hopefully that will be informative, although to be honest the majority of what I've learned has come from this forum!
 
"like crazy" is a bit of an exaggeration. The idea is to stir the sparge water in thoroughly. If introducing oxygen into the mash this was was a significant problem, no one would do it.
I agree. You can stir thoroughly without splashing and oxygenating the wort.
Make yourself a cup of tea and add 2 - 3 teaspoons of sugar, but don't stir, and then sample your tea. The initial sample will not taste sweet because all the sugar will be sitting at the bottom of the cup. By the time you get to the bottom of the cup, it will taste very sweet.
Now repeat the experiment, but stir the sugar gently but thoroughly. (You don't need to whisk it, and oxygenate the tea.) The whole cup will taste equally sweet.
In the case of sparging, the sugars won't be sitting in the bottom of the tun, they will be trapped in the grains. Stirring thoroughly will dissolve those sugars, and allow them to be collected in the wort.

-a.
 
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