Taking the plunge!!

Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Joined
Apr 19, 2011
Messages
7,917
Reaction score
1,092
Location
Minneapolis
Since they're so damned expensive to drink, I've decided to take the plunge and dedicate some equipment to sour brewing. My first batch will be a Flanders red loosely based on JZ's recipe in BCS. I'm hoping to brew this in the next week, but I have a couple (albeit neurotic) questions.

Mash temps? I was thinking of mashing at 154, per Jamil's recipe, but I've heard Vinnie C talk a lot about higher mash temps (158-160F) to leave more long chain sugars in the wort. I know Vinnie does a sacch ferment with his sours before letting the bugs take over, but if I want a really tart and sour beer would I be best to have as many "unfermentable" (by sacch) sugars in the wort as possible? I'm going for a very tart and sour beer, I want to pucker when I drink it.

I'm using the Roselare blend, and I know not to build a starter so the proportions in the blend stay as is. Question is though, do I need to be concerned with pitching rates like with sacch or does a single pack to the trick? OG is targeted at 1.057, I was thinking two smack packs, but if one's enough, that's even better.

Temps? Wy says a range of 65-85 with this blend. Will ~70 get me the right character, or should I keep this one warmer?

Adding dregs? I have a culture of bugs and brett made from dregs from the Bruery's Oude Tart, RR Supplication and 3Fonteinen Oude Gueuze that I want to throw into the mix. I was thinking that I'd add them after the main fermentation subsided, but before the Roselare pellicle formed. Good idea? Or should I just toss them in with the original pitch and let everything fight it out in the fermenter? I'm going for reeeeeeeeeally sour and a nice level of funk. I want tart and funky, my favorite Flanders is Cuvée des Jacobins, and I'd like this to be at least that tart.

Any thing I left out, or if you guys have any tips for a sour brewing n00b, fire away. Thanks!!
 
FWIW, I've only brewed one sour red and am brewing a second batch tomorrow.

I've got a bit of a step infusion mash fetish and I love a good cereal mash, so for my recipe I do both and follow the mash schedule from Wild Brews. Looks like JZs recipe skips the corn entirely. I'd probably mash in around 144 and then do a dextrin rest at 160-2 before mashing out at 170. Not sure what your rig is, but even if you mash in a cooler, it's pretty easy if you start around 1q/lb and add boiling water to raise the temp. Looks like he splits the difference and goes for 156 which is certainly easier.

You probably want to either pitch one pack, one pack + sacc, two packs, two packs + sacc, or one pack and your bottle culture or some combination of those. You might get some different opinions on this. None of them will be right and I doubt any will be wrong either. If we're voting, I'd say brew two and do half just bottle culture and half two packs. If you don't like that idea I'd say one pack + bottle culture.
 
FWIW, I've only brewed one sour red and am brewing a second batch tomorrow.

I've got a bit of a step infusion mash fetish and I love a good cereal mash, so for my recipe I do both and follow the mash schedule from Wild Brews. Looks like JZs recipe skips the corn entirely. I'd probably mash in around 144 and then do a dextrin rest at 160-2 before mashing out at 170. Not sure what your rig is, but even if you mash in a cooler, it's pretty easy if you start around 1q/lb and add boiling water to raise the temp. Looks like he splits the difference and goes for 156 which is certainly easier.

You probably want to either pitch one pack, one pack + sacc, two packs, two packs + sacc, or one pack and your bottle culture or some combination of those. You might get some different opinions on this. None of them will be right and I doubt any will be wrong either. If we're voting, I'd say brew two and do half just bottle culture and half two packs. If you don't like that idea I'd say one pack + bottle culture.

Ha! After posting this, I was perusing the Wild threads and saw you were a regular. I was already planning on picking your brain. :D

I may be able to get my hands on some ECY Bug Country this week from a dude in my club. If I can, I'm using that, maybe along with a pack of Roselare. That's the combo my club has in our Flander's that's in a wine barrel ATM. I'll do my dregs once the main fermentation slows.Heard it's the bee's knees. I was thinking of mashing high high, like 158 in a single infusion. But I'd also read about the two step mash, and thought about it. I'll play around with it in BS2, see what it tells me. Is the two step really necessary since I'm not using anything other than barley and wheat? I'm mashing in a 10 gal bev cooler.

Here's the recipe as it sits ATM.

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 6.58 gal
Post Boil Volume: 5.46 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 5.25 gal
Bottling Volume: 5.25 gal
Estimated OG: 1.057 SG
Estimated Color: 13.9 SRM
Estimated IBU: 16.2 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 70.0 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
4 lbs 10.4 oz Pilsner (2 Row) Bel (2.0 SRM) Grain 1 38.9 %
4 lbs 10.4 oz Vienna Malt (Briess) (3.5 SRM) Grain 2 38.9 %
14.2 oz Munich 10L (Briess) (10.0 SRM) Grain 3 7.4 %
7.0 oz Aromatic Malt (Dingemans) (19.0 SRM) Grain 4 3.7 %
7.0 oz Caramunich II (Weyermann) (63.0 SRM) Grain 5 3.7 %
7.0 oz Special B (Dingemans) (147.5 SRM) Grain 6 3.7 %
7.0 oz Wheat Malt, Pale (Weyermann) (2.0 SRM) Grain 7 3.7 %
0.80 oz Styrian Goldings [5.40 %] - Boil 60.0 mi Hop 8 16.2 IBUs
2.0 pkg Roselare Belgian Blend (Wyeast Labs #376 Yeast 9 -


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Full Body, Batch Sparge
Total Grain Weight: 11 lbs 15.2 oz
----------------------------
Name Description Step Temperat Step Time
Mash In Add 14.93 qt of water at 170.5 F 158.0 F 60 min

Sparge: Batch sparge with 2 steps (0.99gal, 3.29gal) of 168.0 F water
Notes:
------


Created with BeerSmith 2 - http://www.beersmith.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am sort of looking for a "like usual" brew day for this one. First because it's my first sour, and second because a buddy who wants to learn AG is likely brewing with me. If I can get away with a single infusion and still have a really good beer, awesome. If not, well, then me and my buddy are gonna learn something new this weekend. :)

Thanks for chiming in, man. :mug:
 
Looks like our trade just got better for you.

image-2287227389.jpg
 
From my experience, I get another couple points with the 140s/160s approach than a single step. Since you're doing a 6 gallon batch in a bigger cooler, you can mash in at whatever ratio you normally use, and then have room to add enough boiling water to get it up to 160ish. I think that's a good plan and it's fun to put some extra effort in on brew day when you won't be drinking the beer for 18 months. I'm a long boil fan, I'm doing 120 tomorrow. The first batch, I had to go make a delivery, so I sparged twice and boiled 4 hrs.
 
Dude, you rock!! The only quality yeast I can hook you up with ATM is Conan. Or I can get you some more beer, either way, thank you!! I'm playing around with the double infusion mash on BeerSmith. I've honestly never done more than a single with a mashout, but it's essentially the same thing. When you say a few more points, do you mean the OG, FG or both?
 
OG. Maybe gained 3% efficiency. - It's been about 10 weeks since I brewed and haven't checked the gravity. I think I'll have 5.5 gallons to rack over tomorrow, no idea what to do with the extra 1/2 gallon.
 
So when you rack after that initial ferment, are you adding more cultures or just letting what rides over to finish 'er off? Or is ECY20 that much of a beast? Skeezerpleezer said it got his Tart of Darkness clone sour sour after ~6 weeks. Not sure of the SG at this time though.
 
Nordeast- What type of investments did you have to make to get dedicated sour equipment? Is it everything that touches the beer after yeast pitch? I'm thinking some tubing, siphon, fermenter, airlocks, etc. What about stirplates? Do you have dedicated stirplates for getting the bugs up from dregs? I'd love to start soon. I see ECY01 will be releasing soon, which sounds like it is ECY020 for 2013.
 
So when you rack after that initial ferment, are you adding more cultures or just letting what rides over to finish 'er off? Or is ECY20 that much of a beast? Skeezerpleezer said it got his Tart of Darkness clone sour sour after ~6 weeks. Not sure of the SG at this time though.

The 'flanders' i've got going is a pack of saf05 and two wlp665. I'll probably taste when I rack, but at 2 1/2 months, i'm assuming it's gross. Not expecting to be drinking it unti 2014. Not adding anything when I rack, just getting it off the yeast. I've had some sours, both homebrew and commercial, with autolysis defects and it makes diacetyl seem yummy.

Not sure how ECY20 will go in a red. Probably great, I've got mine in a pils/wheat base. You'll either want to pitch it with sacc or do a starter for half. I've had it for a couple months, bought 3 for a barrel I never got only used 1.

Nordy- What type of investments did you have to make to get dedicated sour equipment? Is it everything that touches the beer after yeast pitch? I'm thinking some tubing, siphon, fermenter, airlocks, etc. What about stirplates? Do you have dedicated stirplates for getting the bugs up from dregs? I'd love to start soon. I see ECY01 will be releasing soon, which sounds like it is ECY020 for 2013.

If you soak in oxyclean and then starsan, i doubt you'll have problems. I have common equipment, brew several times a week, and do about half 'funky' and half 'clean' with no problems to date.
 
Nordeast- What type of investments did you have to make to get dedicated sour equipment? Is it everything that touches the beer after yeast pitch? I'm thinking some tubing, siphon, fermenter, airlocks, etc. What about stirplates? Do you have dedicated stirplates for getting the bugs up from dregs? I'd love to start soon. I see ECY01 will be releasing soon, which sounds like it is ECY020 for 2013.

I'm dedicating my two glass 6.5s and my old auto siphon, a few bungs and airlocks, and at bottling time I'll get a new bucket for non wild brews and use my current one for wilds. I'm not gonna kegs sours for the time being. I also have two 3 gal and a 3rd 6.5 gal carboy that my wife uses for wines, so those'll work. I'm not worried about cross contam., but I'm gonna play it safe and dedicate stuff for now.

The 'flanders' i've got going is a pack of saf05 and two wlp665. I'll probably taste when I rack, but at 2 1/2 months, i'm assuming it's gross. Not expecting to be drinking it unti 2014. Not adding anything when I rack, just getting it off the yeast. I've had some sours, both homebrew and commercial, with autolysis defects and it makes diacetyl seem yummy.

Not sure how ECY20 will go in a red. Probably great, I've got mine in a pils/wheat base. You'll either want to pitch it with sacc or do a starter for half. I've had it for a couple months, bought 3 for a barrel I never got only used 1.
.

I'm gonna pitch the ECY I'm getting this week along with a pack of roselare. I'll rack off the main cake and add the bottle dregs. I fed them about 250 ml of low grav wort to wake 'em up. I'll just decant and pitch that into secondary.
 
Anything plastic, rubber or wood can be sanitized but not sterilized so there is always a chance of cross contamination, although if you can boil it, I'd say that chance is pretty close to zero.

Metal and glass are non-porous and can withstand high temps so sterilization isn't a problem.
 
Anything plastic, rubber or wood can be sanitized but not sterilized so there is always a chance of cross contamination, although if you can boil it, I'd say that chance is pretty close to zero.

Metal and glass are non-porous and can withstand high temps so sterilization isn't a problem.

I'm going to be fermenting in glass only, I have a few carboys (3 and 6.5) and a good number of gallon jugs. I'm dedicating my gently used plastics to wild only, since I replace those ~yearly anyway. I'm pretty picky with sanitation, so for the time being I'm going to be extra careful.
 
So, I've read (and now been told by TNGabe and the sour expert in my club) that the RR bottling strain (champagne or wine?) may not be a good thing to throw into this beer. I'm pitching Roselare or Roselare and ECY020 into primary, and I was planning on adding harvested dregs (including Supplication) to secondary when I racked for aging. Would this not be a good plan? What could/would wine or champagne yeast do? Sorry is these are basics, but fermenting anything other than ale and kit wines is new to me, so I have no clue what'd happen. Thanks!!
 
Wine yeast can (depends on the strain) kill sacc yeast. It will not hurt the bugs or the Brett. It is probably dead in the bottles, but you never know.

To get the complexities, I think you want to ferment with sacc, as the Brett uses the esters created by the sacc to develop it's qualities. Once primary fermentation is over, I would not be concerned about having the sacc live. I think it dies relatively quickly in sours anyway (6 months or so) and becomes food for the brett.

To get a beer sourer quicker (although it will still take a long time), pitch just the bug blend with no starter, and no additional yeast, and keep warmish (70s). This will allow the bugs to get established before he sacc starts creating alcohol and slows down the whole process. If you get concerned about fermentation after a couple of days, you can then add a new sacc yeast. Most people pitch both together and then wait it out.

If and when you rack to secondary, don't worry about the bugs as they will be in suspension. Just a word of warning, if the beer gets too cold, bugs will stop working and may fall out of suspension like yeast, so don't cold crash before racking to secondary.
 
I'm not pitching extra sacch, Roselare has a sacch (Belgian) strain, I'm using that for this. More sacch would just leave me with a less sour beer, no? The dregs will go in after everything settles, I'll rack and add dregs, probably let some of the roselare cake go over too. I also rarely cold crash, never seen a need and definitely wouldn't for something like this.
 
Awesome good luck, Im about 2 months on a random sour. I wanted to do the recipe similar to yours, but had a lighty hopped milk stout stall on me which didnt have roasted barley in it as well. So I decided to pitch the lambic blend I got out of the old bin at the lhbs and dregs from a anchorage brew which says there bottled with Brett, Brew-on
 
So today's the day, I'm pretty stoked! I made a few minor adjustments to the recipe based on the grains I chose and hops I have on hand. I also upped the Munich malt after tasting my club's Flanders when it went into the barrel:


Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 6.58 gal
Post Boil Volume: 5.46 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 5.25 gal
Bottling Volume: 5.25 gal
Estimated OG: 1.059 SG
Estimated Color: 15.4 SRM
Estimated IBU: 18.3 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 70.0 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
3 lbs 9.3 oz Pilsner Malt - Rahr & Sons (1.8 SRM) Grain 1 30.0 %
3 lbs 9.3 oz Vienna Malt (Weyermann) (3.0 SRM) Grain 2 30.0 %
2 lbs 15.8 oz Munich I (Weyermann) (7.1 SRM) Grain 3 25.0 %
7.6 oz Caramunich II (Weyermann) (63.0 SRM) Grain 4 4.0 %
7.0 oz Aromamalt (Castle Malting) (50.8 SRM) Grain 5 3.7 %
7.0 oz Special B (Castle Malting) (152.3 SRM) Grain 6 3.7 %
7.0 oz Wheat Malt, Pale (Weyermann) (2.0 SRM) Grain 7 3.7 %
1.00 oz Styrian Goldings [3.80 %] - Boil 60.0 mi Hop 8 14.0 IBUs
0.50 oz Hallertauer Hersbrucker [2.30 %] - Boil Hop 9 4.3 IBUs
2.0 pkg Roselare Belgian Blend (Wyeast Labs #376 Yeast 10 -


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Full Body, Batch Sparge
Total Grain Weight: 11 lbs 15.2 oz
----------------------------
Name Description Step Temperat Step Time
Mash In Add 16.01 qt of water at 169.7 F 158.0 F 60 min

Sparge: Batch sparge with 2 steps (0.72gal, 3.29gal) of 168.0 F water
Notes:
------


Created with BeerSmith 2 - http://www.beersmith.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
You have experience with barrels, I'm looking to pick one up this week from a winery, what should I look for? Anything necessary to get a barrel that will work well for aging sours?
 
You have experience with barrels, I'm looking to pick one up this week from a winery, what should I look for? Anything necessary to get a barrel that will work well for aging sours?

I posted this over on BF too, so sorry if it's a repeat answer.

You want gently used. You can clean them with an acid wash, basically Campden and citric acid to get the wine yeast (and anything else) out. First, fill 'em with water, let the oak swell and make sure it's holding, drain and fill with wash. You can leave the wash in until you're ready to fill. When you wanna fill, drain, purge with co2 and fill.
 
If they're infected with Brett from the winery, do I still want to acid wash them? Don't want to remove anything I might want in there by mistake. I did just pick one up today.
 
So I have a follow up question.... I'm trying to decide how long to leave this beer on the cake before transferring or if I should transfer at all. Gabe, you said you've tasted autolysis in sours before, but I've also heard it's not as much of a concern with sours because the bugs or brett take care of the sacch. I've tasted autolysis in beers before (not a sour though) and it's awful. I don't want to wait a year+ only to have a rotten Spam flavored Flanders. If I do choose to transfer, when? Before the pellicle forms I'm sure, but I want to make sure it's on the cake for long enough too. A guy in my club said 1-3 months... good timeframe?
 
Also curious about this.. I was planning a month on the cake, then to secondary for an indeterminate time.


My Flanders Red recipe is scary similar to yours. For yeast its different. I under-pitched some WLP002 and the dregs from a couple Jolly Pumpkins and a monks cafe.
 
Like everything else in brewing and brewing sours in particular, there are a lot of different ways to do just about everything. I think the important thing is to understand why you're doing whatever it is you choose to do.

I could be wrong, but I think it's only lambics that are traditionally left on the lees. Flanders style beers, being first fermented with brewer's yeast, are transferred off of the yeast before souring and cellaring. Since I don't have a coolship (yet!) I've brewed all of my sours with pitched yeast and then transferred to secondary. To me, it makes more sense to have the brett and bugs eating long chain sugars and the good flavors created by the sacc instead of eating the off flavors created when the cell walls burst. I don't have any flanders style beers bottled, but I do have 4 batches going and the two I've sampled while transferring both have a lot of promise. Both batches spent about two months on the yeast before being transfered and then pitching on to the 'culture cake'.

I doubt I'll use the WLP665 a third time, but I'll sample the second batch before I make that call. The ECY02 I have going is mixed with WY3942. I'm guessing it will be good for several more pitches, but I guess I'll find out.
 
Back
Top