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Yjie91

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Hi guys,

I am a new brewer and currently on the 3rd batch of beer brewing. As of now i am doing wheat beer, but i cant seem to get consistent results. Only my second batch of beer is drinkable. The current 3rd one has been fermenting for close to a week new but its quite sour. I am using live yeast and Muntons LME. I was also sure to make all sanitisation practices done properly.
Btw, some other additional information: i live in singapore, and the weather here is permanently hovering 28-30 deg.C in the day and 25-28 deg.C in the night. My fermentation cycle is 28-30 deg.C in the day, 12pm to 10pm and approx. 21-23 deg.C in the night from 10pm to 12pm the next day.
Also my wort always tastes slightly sour on the 3rd or 4th day, even for my previous working beer batch.

Please help, i really am at a loss here on what to do.

Thanks a lot guys!
 
Well to start with your beer is fermenting at a too high temperature. The ideal range for most ale yeast is somewhere between 16C and 22C. Outside this range you often will get "off" flavours which are produced by the yeast when they ferment too warm.

I have however never heard of sourness being one of these flavours, this would instead suggest to me perhaps you have an infection. Although you might be thorough with you sanitization once you get an infection it can be difficult to get ride of.

My advice would be to either replace you fermenter and all equipment that comes in wort or if that is not possible use a bleach solution and soak all the kit for a few hours followed by a VERY thorough rinsing in water in addition to your normal sanitization practices.

I would then look back at my process and make sure there is nothing you are missing in regards to sanitation. Writing done a flow chart might not be a bad idea, thinking to yourself at each point could that introduce contamination. Also you need to make sure you cleaning practices are as good as you sanitization, if cleaning is poor so will sanitization be.

As for the temps of your fermentation you can use either a fridge to control temps, or a swamp cooler. That is a bucket of water which you stand the fermenter in. In to this you can place ice packs of somesort. You can then wrap the fermenter in a wet cloth sheet which at one end in submersed in the water. You can use a fan for extra cooling.

If you still can't get you keeps low enough, you can make saisions and hefeweizen at warmer temps that most ale yeast.
 
Hi queequeg,

Thanks so much for the really comprehensive reply!!

For me 2nd batch (the successful one) i did bleach the fermenter, but it still gave off some sourness on day 3 and day 4. Following which, day 5 and 6 they smelled and tasted ok. I do know the current temperatures i am fermenting with will produce quite a lot of off flavour in the form of esters, right now as a beginner brewer i would like to get my techniques right first before moving on to better, more sophisticated equipment. However, i will heed your advice on bleaching and soaking it for a few hours before my next brew.

Once again, may i clarify, for the second brew which somewhat worked, the initial sourness which eventually went off is due to an infection?

Thank you so much and cheers!
 
Typically sourness is caused by bacteria or wild yeast. It would not surprise me that sourness can reduced with time as metabolic biproducts are reworked by the yeast.

The only other thing I can think of that might be causing sourness is the water. If the mineral profile contains a lot of Na or Mg this can make the beer sour.

What water do you use to brew with?

Also what yeast are you using? supplier/strain?
 
Hmm I use WB06 for the second batch i believe. The current one is a live yeast recommended to me by a shop owner for wheat beer.

As for water i use the singapore tap water (20 litres) and 3 litres purified distilled water. If i remember correctly, singaporean tap water only contains small ppm for Na Cl ions.

Once again thanks so much for the really quick replies!
 
That is a odd water report, in that it is very comprehensive in some regards and lacking in others. The are no result for Mg or Na. So unless you ask the water authority you won't know.

However looking at the rest of the report and from a quick google regarding Singapore water it would look like the water is treated in some way prior to supply. The mineral profile for those listed is very low, so I suspect Mg and Na levels would be low also and this is an artefact of the treatment process.

When you say live yeast what do you mean? Liquid yeast or a slant? does this come from a recognised supplier like whitelabs or is it a slurry from the shop/local brewery?
 
Its a slurry, from a local brewery here in singapore called Brewerkz. I don't know whats a slant though, i will goggle it to find out what that is.
 
O.K just to recap the things we have considered

1) Contamination in your fermenter/kit
2) Contamination somehow in your yeast supply (perhaps introduced during handling)
3) To much Na or Mg in your water profile or some other effect from the water
4) Off flavours due to high ferm. temps.

Now of course they could be something your doing that we haven't considered but if for your next batch you correct all these issues and you can check for sourness you'll be able to eliminate /identify the issue.

Therefore for the next batch, try using a swamp cooler, use fermentis dried yeast, use distilled water and change/bleach bomb your kit. If you still get it your'll need to post your entire brewing process in more detail to others to look at.

btw do you have a picture of the Krausen/surface of the wort? Does it look infected?
 
Hi queequeg!

Ok i will find a way to attach a picture of it up to this post. Yeap definitely heed your advice. Uhm as for the chiller kind of hard, as i am on a bit of a budget now. I want to get the consistency of a working batch and no sourness before moving on to better equipment. But am will definitely upgrade in the long term.

I will update you with up my upcoming batches!
 
Hi Queequeg,

Apologies for the rather late reply; was bogged down with work and whatnot. This is the picture of the wort on day 4/5.

The wort is now in its day 7 of fermentation, and I have stopped it by removing the wort and placing it in a sterile pot in the fridge. I have not yet decided what to do with it though.

Also another thing; while pouring out the wort, I realised that there was autolysis of the yeast present, due to the darkening of the trub. The fermenter is currently holding a full capacity of bleach solution to ensure all bacteria is killed. I am planning to leave the fermenter as it is for at least 24 hours before rinsing the bleach out.

May I once again confirm, when I brew again, I should:
1) rinse through the fermenter
2) bleach it for minimum 20 minutes
3) rinse through again to remove all traces of bleach and its smell
4) apply starsan
5) close the lid until it is time to transfer the wort to the fermenter?

IMG_3094.jpg


IMG_3103.jpg
 
I don't think there is any need for the second bleach, if bleach is going to kill the contamination it will do it in 24 hours. Bleach will actually get most things given enough time, even some of the toughest spores. However if you fermenter has any places which can act as an occlusion spots then you won't get sanitization. To avoid occlusion makes sure your fermenter is clean and make sure it has not major scratches inside.

The best why to avoid occlusion is to fill the entire fermenter close to the top. Make sure you run some bleach out through the tap at the start of the soak. I would also disconnect and disassemble the tap and soak it separately afterwards because tap have lots of occlusion spots.

Make sure you rise with water really well, after you are happy you have rinsed out all the bleach fill the entire fermenter with water and dissolve a campden tablet into the water. This is a safety measure to make sure you get ride of all the chlorine. leave it an hour (though it works instantly) then pour it away, rinse and starsan as usual. Do the same with the tap. The last thing you want in chlorophenols in your beer.

As for that batch, post the imagine in is my beer infected thread. Others have more experience than me with identifying infections than me. My gut is that it looks o.k.

If it not infected then I can only think its an water issue.
 
Hi queequeg,

I think its infect actually; this is because i just did a taste test and it tastes strongly of vinegar and nothing else.

However i will do as suggested. Here in singapore we don't have campden tablets, but i am sure there's some substitute here. Will check that out and use that eventually. In the event that i cant find the tablets, is suppose a really good rinsing and washing will do?

Hey also really want to say thanks for the thread replies man. Btw, may i know which country are you from?

Cheers from singapore!!
 
You should be able to get it as it used as a food preservative. It might be listed as potassium or sodium metabisulfite. If its the powdered form you would just need a pitch for a batch worth of water. Its worth getting as you can use it to dechlorinate your water quick and easily.

If you can't get it just rinse it well. Also make sure you soak and rinse any other things that have contact with cooled wort, use a measuring jugs, siphons etc. You don't want to go to all that effort just to recontaminate your next brew with something you have missed.

I'm from the UK. So cheers from the UK.

PS for the next batch do something simple. Say light or extra light dry malt extract and a few ounces of a single hop variety, say something like cascade. Use US-05 if you can get it because it a very neutral yeast. If it works you'll have a drinkable beer and if it doesn't it will be easy to spot any off flavours.
 
It doesn't look like that spigot is able to be disassembled. That is a must for good sanitation.

Yeah I agree, taps on fermenters aren't a great idea imo. Commercial fermenters that do have taps are made of steel and can be completely broken down and heat treated or soaked in caustic.
 
Hey queequeg and hotpepper,

Yeah i would be upgrading to a better rig in the near future. Currently this fermenter is more like the first step before i move on to the deeper end of beer brewing, which is why i would like to get my techniques right first.

I will definitely look out for the products you mentioned queequeg!

@Hotpepper: Yeah the spigot can't be broken down but it can be removed from the fermenter. Best solution to this problem is just to open the spigot valve and immerse it in beach water I guess :/

Will be updating with the next batch soon! Probably this coming sunday!

Cheers!
 
Hey queequeg and hotpepper,

Yeah i would be upgrading to a better rig in the near future. Currently this fermenter is more like the first step before i move on to the deeper end of beer brewing, which is why i would like to get my techniques right first.

I will definitely look out for the products you mentioned queequeg!

@Hotpepper: Yeah the spigot can't be broken down but it can be removed from the fermenter. Best solution to this problem is just to open the spigot valve and immerse it in beach water I guess :/

Will be updating with the next batch soon! Probably this coming sunday!

Cheers!

All of the answers the questions asked here seem completely legit; however, the water itself may be a bit of a problem, especially if the boil/boil temps were not achieved thoroughly throughout the wort. For instance, in 2010 I lived in Florida. One day I come home from work to find a note on my door telling me that they had performed maintenance on the water lines. The note informs persons involved to take certain precautions and avoid consuming the water immediately after this period. I followed the instructions and the next day I still had horrible upset stomach, etc. The bacteria in the lines was active and a simple flushing wouldn't fix it!!! At any point, if you used a tap water source that could have held a type of bacteria that is more active in warmer temps, such as beer, you could easily have problems from even rinsing your wort paddle without properly boiled water.

Just some thoughts. I use spring water that I collect myself in sanitized jugs. I bring the water home and boil it. We also drink the water from the same containers that I use to transport the water for brewing, wine making, etc. To date, we haven't encountered any problems.

Also, if using bottled water, beware the plastic used in the bottles. Sometimes you would be surprised what's in those things.

Cheers,
AlfA0
 
Hey AlfA0,

Thanks for the insight on bacteria present in tap water!

For the wort i boil for an extra 5-10 minutes after a rolling boil is reached before placing my LME in.

As for sanitisation after rinsing is done after the bleaching i use a food grade sanitiser such as Starsan to kill off any bacteria remaining in my fermenter due to the rinsing. I then close the lid (also applied with Starsan) to prevent any aerial bacteria from entering my fermenter.

I actually have been doing this quite religiously for all my batches; which is also the reason as to why i am so perplexed that even after performing all these sanitisation works, i still get infected beer.

A great big thanks for the insights and cheers from singapore!
 
Hey AlfA0,

Thanks for the insight on bacteria present in tap water!

For the wort i boil for an extra 5-10 minutes after a rolling boil is reached before placing my LME in.

As for sanitisation after rinsing is done after the bleaching i use a food grade sanitiser such as Starsan to kill off any bacteria remaining in my fermenter due to the rinsing. I then close the lid (also applied with Starsan) to prevent any aerial bacteria from entering my fermenter.

I actually have been doing this quite religiously for all my batches; which is also the reason as to why i am so perplexed that even after performing all these sanitisation works, i still get infected beer.

A great big thanks for the insights and cheers from singapore!

And Cheers from Greece! Just thought I would offer you some suggestions to help with any possible solution to your problem. There is most probably an obvious contributor to the infections you are experiencing. I make wine and the water is not typically boiled then added to the mash.

I'll throw a curveball: are you using extract or grain? If grain, do you know where the grain comes from and how it is handled? Do you grind yourself? I personally have my brew-shop grind my grains--I trust them. But, you coud experience a mold or infection in the grains prior to you receiving them. There is a theory that the Salem Witches were burned at the stake because of such a grain infection being in the wheat. That is far out and probably not what you want to hear, but the fact remains that it is possible for grains to mold and develop bacteria that may not be killed during the brewing process.

Kick the ideas around and if I have any other ideas I'll send them to you.

Cheers,
AlfA01
 
Hi AlfA0!

So sorry it took so long for me to reply, I have been busy with work these few days. I am using Munton's and Cooper's Liquid Malt Extracts for my brews. As I am a beginner brewer, I decided to take this road to brewing first as it is supposedly meant to be easier to brew.

Thing is, I would really like to buy some new equipment; but as of now I am short on cash, so I am bleaching, rinsing, and sanitising the fermentor a few days before the actual brewing. On the day of the brewing, I re-rinse the fermenter with bleach solution, wash the bleach out with tap water and re-sanitise it with Starsan and immediately close the lid of the fermenter. My liquid malt extract would then already be boiling and I pour the the wort into the fermenter along with ice made from distilled water and chilled boiled tap water (the boiled tap water is stored in the fridge with its lid closed to prevent contamination). Lastly, I pitch the yeast in and close the lid and leave it to ferment. Yet, it still goes sour after 3-4 days.

I really am at a loss as to what to do now. :(
 
3-4 days is a very short time for an infection to make a noticeable impact on your beer. Have you tried just leaving the beer in the fermenter for two weeks without tasting it? Maybe you are picking up on some fermentation byproducts and interpreting it as sour.

I read your post about the batch that tasted like vinegar. That comes from acetobacter usually, and acetobacter needs oxygen to convert alcohol to acetic acid. Opening your fermenter during fermentation is only going to make the vinegar problem worse. Even if you didn't initially have an infection, every time you open the lid, you are increasing the risk that something gets in, and you are allowing oxygen in to the headspace.

I second the suggestion to do a very simple recipe with US-05 and keep the fermentation temp under 20C. Don't take any samples, don't open the lid to peek, DON'T PLAY WITH YOUR BEER! Give it 2 weeks of privacy. Then take a gravity/taste sample.
 
Hi Boydster,

My fermenter has a tap for which I can tap the beer out to taste. I do not open the fermenter lid at all. Unfortunate here in Singapore we don't have US-02, hence the next beat option is to use Wheat Beer LME's. They require a relatively shorter time to ferment as its meant to be drunk young. Also, here in Singapore there temperature never goes below 20 deg.C and I currently don't have enough cash on hand to get a chiller for fermenting. I have also heard and read from other brewers and brewing threads that sourness is unheard of when brewing beer; unless we are try to achieve Lambic beer as the final result. Technically the brew should not even sour if sanitisation has been practised properly.

This is the reason why I feel so tied up and discouraged currently.
 
US-05 is a type of yeast. The LME is your sugar source. If infection is a concern and you are boiling your LME, the infection isn't coming from the extract. Pitching a yeast slurry that is already contaminated is a very real potential source of infection, though, and one of the few avenues you haven't pursued from what I gather reading the thread.

I understand wheat beers are meant to be consumed young, but that doesn't mean you should be drinking it 3 or 4 days into fermentation. You should be letting it finish, then carbonating, then consuming. Even drinking a beer that is 30 days old from the date it was brewed is still drinking it "young". You won't be disappointed with waiting a little longer to start drinking the beer.

By fermenting warm, not only are you encouraging more ester development as you mentioned, but your yeast is metabolizing sugars at a very fast pace. Sometimes, the yeast will only partially break down the sugar initially, leaving acetaldehyde behind in the beer. That chemical tastes like green apples and it would be normal to expect that on day 3 or 4 with a warm fermentation. Given a day or two after the sugars are all consumed, your yeast will finish metabolizing the acetaldehyde and other byproducts, leaving a cleaner tasting beer.

My suggestion is still to get a fresh packet of yeast and make a batch without sampling until fermentation is complete - that's going to be at least 7-10 days (allowing time for the yeast to clean up fermentation byproducts) and ideally wait 2-3 weeks before you consider taking a sample or packaging the beer.

If you can get a plastic tub big enough to set your fermenter in, you can fill the tub with water and use frozen bottles of water to help keep temps down. Not sure if there are Walmarts in Singapore, but they have cheap rope totes that are perfect.
 
Hi Boydster,

Really big thanks for the quick reply!
Alright I will check out US-02! I also thought of the same thing; so for now I will not use a yeast slurry but dry yeast.

I did once make a drinkable batch; that was after 1 week of fermenting and 2 weeks of carbonation. But that was only once. Beyond that batch; none of the worts tasted like apples after 2-3 days, but more of the onset of sourness. On the 6th day, it would become really sour; more of vinegary to be exact.

I am aware that high fermenting temperatures will result in excessive ester production, and therefore I am looking into buying a chiller for it in the near future, after I get my techniques right. After all, its best not to fly before you can walk; in my honest opinion. Best to get the brewing techniques and consistent batches of drinkable beer. Singapore doesn't have Walmart, but I think you mean if the stores here in Singapore sell wide base pails to hold ice and water? I am not sure myself; please forgive me if I misunderstand you.

Once again thanks a lot!
 
...I think you mean if the stores here in Singapore sell wide base pails to hold ice and water? I am not sure myself; please forgive me if I misunderstand you.

That is exactly what I mean. Good luck on your next batch! I hope using a fresh packet of yeast does the trick. As long as you can keep oxygen from getting into the fermenter, I am optimistic that this will work for you.
 
Hi Boydster,

Alright thanks!! I will update this post once i start on a new batch!
 
Others are offering good advice if you're trying to track down an infection. However, I suspect you might be chasing a non-issue. The beer you let ferment 10 days and then bottle condition for 2 weeks was good (even that is a fairly fast turn-around). The beer your drinking after 3-6 days in the fermenter is not good. If the infection was in your first batch from the equipment, then it would have likely been in the second (good) batch too. If it was a water problem then that would have also turned up in the good batch.

To me the variable that changed between the good and bad batches were that you gave the good batch time. The other batches it seems you're almost drinking them before they even get into the fermenter.
 
Queequeg, you've done a fine job and service to our community - hats off to you!

Queequeg, it 'may' be that your are opening your fermenter to often and potentially introducing some problems. I see you are very concerned about sanitation (as you should be) but after you pitch the yeast (and control the temps), let it finish before you open anything up. (Just 2 cents worth)

I will say...you do have the right 'attitude' and you WILL be successful.
 
Hi guys, really big thanks for the support here; just a really quick clarification; not trying to correct anybody or anything.

For the drinkable batch; which was the 2nd batch; the wort was fermented from Sunday to Saturday; which was approximately 6.5 days worth of fermentation. Following that was 1 week of carbonation before opening to drink. Subsequent batches took 3-4 days to turn really vinegary sour. I am not too sure with the water here in Singapore as we drink it from the tap; and I do know of some craft brewers (read from blogs and such) that they use chilled boiled tap water to top up and cool off their wort.

However, I am now narrowing the infection source to be from the fermenter itself. This is because the in the first batch, I left the wort to cool for too long (4 hour plus minus to be specific) and I believe the infection could have started from there. Also, recently, after washing the fermenter, with 24 hours of bleaching solution, rinsing and spraying with Starsan, I forgot to remove the lid off the fermenter to allow evaporation. As such, the Starsan solution could not evaporate and remained in the fermenter. That same liquid turned milky today and smelt slightly reminiscent of the failed batches of beer previously. I smelled my Starsan sprayer and it does not look milky nor did it have a sour smell to it.

As such, I would like to ask the good community of homebrewtalk.com if my problem really did come from the fermenter. If so, how do I get rid of that infection? I also have a spigot but I cannot break it down, hence all I can do is to submerge the spigot into a pail of bleached water; and then spray with Starsan again. I only fear that it is not enough. May I humbly ask you guys if there's any way to save the fermenter without buying a new one?

If you need to know, my fermenter is the Coopers 'new' fermentor, with a krausen collar and a spigot that can be detached from it.

Thank so much for the support guys!
 
Hey andy6026 and nealperkins,

I not sure if you guys are notified of the replies so here is my attempt at notification
 
The StarSan turning milky doesn't mean your fermenter is harboring an infection.

I'm still not convinced infection is your problem. It may be. It may not be. It may be part of a multiple-issue ordeal. The way to get to the bottom of it is to be methodical in your approach. Make a simple brew with new yeast and don't take samples until it has had a couple weeks to sit in the fermenter. You could also make a small batch in a one gallon glass wine jug at the same time, and see if that batch takes on the same flavor. If the bigger batch is the only one that tastes off, you are beginning to hone in on the problem. If they both taste the same, you know the issue isn't the fermenter.

If both batches taste fine, you are back to the yeast being the likely source of contamination. You can keep testing, changing one variable at a time, or you can move ahead with whatever new process first produces a beer without the flavors you are working to avoid.

If you take a sample on day 4 (don't!), it won't taste like the beer it wants to become. Resist the temptation. And for the love of everything holy, don't deem the beer an infected loss if for some reason your will power fails you and you taste the beer early! :D
 
Hey guys,

I am back brewing another batch; but as I am short on cash, I was unable to buy a cooling system for beer fermentation. As such, my brew is currently fermenting at ambient temperature; which is approximately 30-32 deg.C. (Yes it is that hot here in Singapore.)

Based on your experience, how long would it take for my brew to complete fermentation?

Thanks a lot guys!
 
Probably not as long as it should take.
What yeast are you using?

You can cool things down a little by using a swamp cooler... cloth draped over the fermenter and kept wet, the evaporation cools the fermenter. A fan helps.
 
Hi Pkrd!

I am using Safbrew WB-06. Yeah i have applied the suggestions, but it still stays are the same temperature. Yeah its that hot here in Singapore. Any rough gauges of fermentation time period to suggest? Just curious as I just don't want to over ferment it. Doing that tends to make the brew turn sour and cause autolysis in the yeast cells.
 
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