Brett noob w/ questions

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Burgs

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I'm resolving to make 2012 a year where I make brett beers. Having never done one, naturally I have a couple of questions.

Buying a fresh Wyeast or White Labs culture makes the price of entry a little bit higher than just buying saach strains - in the case of Wyeast it's like $10 a pack vs. $7-ish. To make the most of my money, is it possible/common to either save and re-use brett slurries and/or build up the dregs from my bottle-conditioned beers into new starters? How much does the strain tend to change when you do this over a few generations?

I've also read about people using bottle dregs from commercial sours in various ways, and the one that I think sounds really cool and would like to experiment with is adding them @ bottling time. What effect can I expect this to have on my beer - extra carbonation/effervescense? Souring over time (if there are bacterial strains in there as well)?

If I choose to do the above, should I segregate that bottling wand/bucket away from the one I want to use for 100% brett beers? I ask because I'm not really interested in making sour beers really, more so in doing just 100% brettanomyces fermentations - mainly due to the fact that it sounds like a 100% brett beer has a faster turnaround time than waiting on something to sour (please correct me if I'm wrong there). Most of the commercial sour/wild beers I can get around here are probably going to have lacto, pedio, etc. in them a la Jolly Pumpkin - and that's what I'd likely be using as my bottle dregs. (Is Orval 100% brett in the dregs or are there other bugs in there too)?

I am excited to go down this route! If I brew some gross beer then hey, at least I'm experimenting & that's what this hobby is all about, right? I guess I'm just tired of playing it safe and brewing stouts and pale ales and stuff that I can easily go out and buy a six pack of. I'm not discounting the opinions of people who enjoy doing that, but in the words of Workaholics' Adam Demamp - I'm ready to get WEIRD!
 
To clarify one part of this that sounds kinda confusing as I re-read it:

I say that I want to do 100% brett beer, but then I talk about using the dregs from sour beers like Jolly Pumpkin. I guess what I'm considering here is that I don't want to shoot for a high level of initial sourness in any of these beers that I make, but if I can add a subtle tartness, even if it increases over time being in the bottle, by adding sour dregs @ bottling time - then that sounds good to me.
 
100% brett beers do not attenuate like sours; they attenuate more like regular sacc fermentations so if you're adding sour dregs at bottling you might get too much fermentation in the bottle and produce bombs. There are probably some people around here who have added dregs at bottling with no problems but I'd rather not risk glass shrapnel in my house, especially if it blows while opening a bottle right in front of me. Depending on what is in the dregs you could get just sourness and no extra carbonation but if there is brett it's very possible that brett will kick off a superattenuative fermentation in the bottle and cause bombs.

If you are just doing brett (no sour bacteria or dregs) then you can get away with having one set of equipment as long as you practice good sanitation. You could use one set no matter what you are using if you follow proper sanitation but having a second set of post-fermentation equipment is a cheap and worthwhile insurance policy, especially when you have bacteria in the mix because they can hide out in smaller crevices, making them harder to clean out.

I think 100% brett beers are different from sours. There's not a lot of sourness involved (usually) more of a slight to moderate funk. Personally to get some sourness I'd do a sour mash/sour wort pre-boil and then just ferment with brett. (You could also use acid malt or make acid additions pre or post fermentation.) Brett needs a more acidic wort to ferment than sacc so you might find yourself needing to do something to acidify the wort pre-fermentation anyway.

You can definitely harvest brett by yeast washing in the fermenter or bottle harvesting, although anything you take from a bottle that had dregs will carry those additional critters into the next fermentation. With the all brett beers coming on the market you might be able to find an unfiltered, unpasteurized strain in a commercial bottle. I've harvested out of Orval with good success. Orval dregs will give you brett brux that has that very funky, barnyard flavor. (I believe Orval dregs have some live sacc but my attempt to harvest definitely did not produce anything reminiscent of sacc.) You'll want to look at the brett strain in anything you try to harvest because they all produce different flavors. E.g. brux and lambicus produce very different flavors. You'll also get different flavors and levels of acidity based on the grains you use, the volume of pitching, degree of oxygenation, and initial acidity in the wort.
 
First off, thanks for taking the time to reply, I appreciate it! Lots of good stuff here for me to digest.

100% brett beers do not attenuate like sours; they attenuate more like regular sacc fermentations so if you're adding sour dregs at bottling you might get too much fermentation in the bottle and produce bombs. There are probably some people around here who have added dregs at bottling with no problems but I'd rather not risk glass shrapnel in my house, especially if it blows while opening a bottle right in front of me. Depending on what is in the dregs you could get just sourness and no extra carbonation but if there is brett it's very possible that brett will kick off a superattenuative fermentation in the bottle and cause bombs.

Would this also be true if the initial fermentation was 100% brett as well - i.e. I have a beer that brett has already attenuated to a low FG, but if I introduce a small amount of fresh yeast + sour bugs & whatever else from bottle dregs - I'd still run the risk of bottle bombs?

I would not be doing saach for the initial ferment and then brett @ bottling - I definitely see what you're saying there.

If you are just doing brett (no sour bacteria or dregs) then you can get away with having one set of equipment as long as you practice good sanitation. You could use one set no matter what you are using if you follow proper sanitation but having a second set of post-fermentation equipment is a cheap and worthwhile insurance policy, especially when you have bacteria in the mix because they can hide out in smaller crevices, making them harder to clean out.

I think to keep it simple at first, I will just focus on doing a 100% brett fermentation and bottling without adding anything extra.

I think 100% brett beers are different from sours. There's not a lot of sourness involved (usually) more of a slight to moderate funk. Personally to get some sourness I'd do a sour mash/sour wort pre-boil and then just ferment with brett. (You could also use acid malt or make acid additions pre or post fermentation.) Brett needs a more acidic wort to ferment than sacc so you might find yourself needing to do something to acidify the wort pre-fermentation anyway.

The slight to moderate funk is what I'm after. I've had some sour beers that I've liked a lot, I enjoy a lot of what I've tried from Jolly Pumpkin, but I've also had some that I just haven't acquired the stomach for quite yet.

You can definitely harvest brett by yeast washing in the fermenter or bottle harvesting, although anything you take from a bottle that had dregs will carry those additional critters into the next fermentation. With the all brett beers coming on the market you might be able to find an unfiltered, unpasteurized strain in a commercial bottle. I've harvested out of Orval with good success. Orval dregs will give you brett brux that has that very funky, barnyard flavor. (I believe Orval dregs have some live sacc but my attempt to harvest definitely did not produce anything reminiscent of sacc.) You'll want to look at the brett strain in anything you try to harvest because they all produce different flavors. E.g. brux and lambicus produce very different flavors. You'll also get different flavors and levels of acidity based on the grains you use, the volume of pitching, degree of oxygenation, and initial acidity in the wort.

Cool. So if I start with 100% brett and then I want to wash and re-use yeast from the fermenter, I don't really run any greater risk of picking up lacto or other bacteria - than I would with doing the same thing with saach, correct? Obviously if my sanitation practices suck then there's always a risk. I think I'm pretty solid there. I guess what spurred me to ask that question is specifically this:

Brettanomyces Lambicus Bacteria Culture - Wyeast 5526 - Rebel Brewer

vs.

Wyeast Laboratories. Brettanomyces lambicus

Rebel Brewer is incorrect in calling Wyeast 5526 a bacteria culture, aren't they? To be fair, it does look like the same verbiage copy/pasted on every product page that isn't straight up saach - so I get that the warning may just be on there because it was easier to put it on everything. I just want to make sure that the yeast I buy, be it brett l. or b. or c. (which I'm having fun reading me about & thanks for the heads up on what Orval contains) - doesn't have any bacteria in it. Cause like I said before, I'm going for the funk & fruitiness and not sourness.

Thanks again for your post! :mug:
 
Ordered the American Farmhouse Blend (wlp670), Brettanomyces Claussenii (wlp645) and Belgian Bastogne (not wild, but still excited) just a bit ago. Can't wait to use 'em!

I think for the 670 I want to do like a rye saison, with the brett c. I want to do something simple like a patersbier almost but with fruity hops, and I might try an Orval clone with the Bastogne & do that as the primary + bottle dregs in secondary?
 
Would this also be true if the initial fermentation was 100% brett as well - i.e. I have a beer that brett has already attenuated to a low FG, but if I introduce a small amount of fresh yeast + sour bugs & whatever else from bottle dregs - I'd still run the risk of bottle bombs?

Brett on its own won't superattenuate. You could easily end up with a FG in the 1.020-1.010 range. When you add dregs you're going to activate the souring bacteria to the extent they can survive in the environment but since you're likely also adding brett the new brett will want to function like brett does in a secondary fermentation and superattenuate down to 1.000. I don't understand the science behind it I just know it tends to happen.

Cool. So if I start with 100% brett and then I want to wash and re-use yeast from the fermenter, I don't really run any greater risk of picking up lacto or other bacteria - than I would with doing the same thing with saach, correct? Obviously if my sanitation practices suck then there's always a risk. I think I'm pretty solid there. I guess what spurred me to ask that question is specifically this:

Brettanomyces Lambicus Bacteria Culture - Wyeast 5526 - Rebel Brewer

vs.

Wyeast Laboratories. Brettanomyces lambicus

Rebel Brewer is incorrect in calling Wyeast 5526 a bacteria culture, aren't they? To be fair, it does look like the same verbiage copy/pasted on every product page that isn't straight up saach - so I get that the warning may just be on there because it was easier to put it on everything. I just want to make sure that the yeast I buy, be it brett l. or b. or c. (which I'm having fun reading me about & thanks for the heads up on what Orval contains) - doesn't have any bacteria in it. Cause like I said before, I'm going for the funk & fruitiness and not sourness.

Thanks again for your post! :mug:

Yeah rebel brewer is incorrectly labeling the product. You can compare the product number. Unless it says blend it is a pure culture.

You can follow the same wash process on brett as you would for sacc. You will keep a clean culture as much as your sanitation allows. I have washed brett in my fridge and it's lasted without any problems as well or better than sacc.
 
My 5 cents worth.

100% Brett beers are great. Very different from using Brett as a secondary yeast.

Using Brett as the only yeast:

- Start with a simple saison recipe (experiment after that).
- Add half pound of acid malt to the bill.
- Make a big starter.
- Take 8 ozs of the starter and put in mason jar and store in fridge (you can use this to make a starter for your next beer).
- Aerate well. Then aerate again.
- My experience is it will ferment well for a couple of weeks and take a couple more months to completely finish.

Good luck.
 
My 5 cents worth.

100% Brett beers are great. Very different from using Brett as a secondary yeast.

Using Brett as the only yeast:

- Start with a simple saison recipe (experiment after that).
- Add half pound of acid malt to the bill.
- Make a big starter.
- Take 8 ozs of the starter and put in mason jar and store in fridge (you can use this to make a starter for your next beer).
- Aerate well. Then aerate again.
- My experience is it will ferment well for a couple of weeks and take a couple more months to completely finish.

Good luck.

Sounds good, thanks! What's your reasoning behind acid malt - just complementary to the flavor the brett provides? Or are you looking for some kind of sourness/tartness?
 
Brett on its own won't superattenuate. You could easily end up with a FG in the 1.020-1.010 range. When you add dregs you're going to activate the souring bacteria to the extent they can survive in the environment but since you're likely also adding brett the new brett will want to function like brett does in a secondary fermentation and superattenuate down to 1.000. I don't understand the science behind it I just know it tends to happen.

Interesting on the fresh brett taking things down further. Sounds like it would be best to add dregs to secondary and let things stabilize for a bit before bottling then.

Yeah rebel brewer is incorrectly labeling the product. You can compare the product number. Unless it says blend it is a pure culture.

I thought that seemed like the case, thanks!
 
If you are looking for something along the lines of Jolly Pumpkin funk/sourness with a relatively quick (~4-6 weeks) turnaround, I suggest you check out the "Can You Brew It" episode where they clone Bam Biere. I've brewed the recipe twice with Bam dregs in the secondary/keg. Both of my batches resulted in a beer that was refreshing, mildly tart, fruity, and funky (especially as the bottles aged).
 
Sounds good, thanks! What's your reasoning behind acid malt - just complementary to the flavor the brett provides? Or are you looking for some kind of sourness/tartness?

Brett works better in acidic worts. Adding the acid malt is to help with the Brett along, nothing to do with adding any sourness. Personally I can't notice the contribution of a half pound of acid malt in a regular beer.
 
If you are looking for something along the lines of Jolly Pumpkin funk/sourness with a relatively quick (~4-6 weeks) turnaround, I suggest you check out the "Can You Brew It" episode where they clone Bam Biere. I've brewed the recipe twice with Bam dregs in the secondary/keg. Both of my batches resulted in a beer that was refreshing, mildly tart, fruity, and funky (especially as the bottles aged).

I will check that out - I love Bam Biere. Thanks
 
Brett works better in acidic worts. Adding the acid malt is to help with the Brett along, nothing to do with adding any sourness. Personally I can't notice the contribution of a half pound of acid malt in a regular beer.

Gotcha - I am doing 2.5 gal batches so will scale that back, but will definitely try it out.
 
Do you guys also tend to mash pretty high on 100% brett fermentations?

NO! In 100% beers, Brett acts very similarly to regular yeast, but adds a lot more flavor. It is not more attenuative; if anything it is less attenuative than most regular yeasts. I get somewhere between 70 and 75% attenuation.
 
Depends on how much Brett flavor you want and when you want to pitch it. More sugars available that the yeast can't chew, the more Brett.

Turbid mashing and Berliner weisse mashes are all super low and leave a LOT of weird sugars in the wort. Saison mashes are typically low, but bretting browns, etc are higher. Different points of pitching and flavor characteristics drive that decision.

If Brett is your backbone, yes. If its just a component, maybe.

Brett is fun!!
 
Depends on how much Brett flavor you want and when you want to pitch it. More sugars available that the yeast can't chew, the more Brett.

Turbid mashing and Berliner weisse mashes are all super low and leave a LOT of weird sugars in the wort. Saison mashes are typically low, but bretting browns, etc are higher. Different points of pitching and flavor characteristics drive that decision.

If Brett is your backbone, yes. If its just a component, maybe.

Brett is fun!!

He is looking to use Brett as the primary yeast, not as a secondary yeast.
 
Yup. Just illustrating the variety of options even in Brett primaries ie, no set way.

A high mash might leave some sugars that may result in a dubious gravity reading when approaching TG. With those beers, i would forget about them, and then forget some more until they're down to 1003-1001. Whereas a lower mash, you know those sugars are highly fermentable and will get down to TG relatively quickly.

I would treat mashing as normal. What kind of body do you want? It will be different with Brett, of course. But a similar process as using sacch.
 
I imagine I'll be brewing beers that I'd want a light-medium body in. If I treat it as a normal saach beer, they'd be recipes I'd mash at 149-152. I plan on doing a lot of paler beers like saisons, blonde, and patersbier.
 
Perfect. I think you'll be happy mashing low for those guys. Especially if you have Brett in the primary. For that extra "chewiness" consider adding rye and oats to you your bill as opposed to higher mashing. That will keep that lightness around while maintaining body.

I have a black saison that I mashed low (147), then added partially caramelized figs to the primary. I pitched a high krausen saison yeast with a slow Brett (propped up from Tired Hands Wachu Saison). It is just kicking ass right now!! Really fruity and tropical with that Brett leather in there.
 
I imagine I'll be brewing beers that I'd want a light-medium body in. If I treat it as a normal saach beer, they'd be recipes I'd mash at 149-152. I plan on doing a lot of paler beers like saisons, blonde, and patersbier.

My understanding and experience with Brett C is that you can pretty much forget about looking for a medium bodied beer. The Brett C i am using takes beer down to 1.000 to 1.003. Admittedly this is being used during secondary fermentation. Nonetheless i see no reason why it will not continue to reduce the sugars in any beer until all(or vast majority) are spent. I might be missing something here(regular occurrence) but you should treat all brett'd beers as serious sugar eaters and don't bottle at 1.010 to 1.014 if it stops there. I'm sure someone will be along to explain more or point out the error of my advice as i've only brett'd a few times. In saying that, the mouthfeel and flavours from the brett'd beers were way better that their FG would have indicated. Good luck and welcome to a whole new fractal!
 
My understanding and experience with Brett C is that you can pretty much forget about looking for a medium bodied beer. The Brett C i am using takes beer down to 1.000 to 1.003. Admittedly this is being used during secondary fermentation. Nonetheless i see no reason why it will not continue to reduce the sugars in any beer until all(or vast majority) are spent. I might be missing something here(regular occurrence) but you should treat all brett'd beers as serious sugar eaters and don't bottle at 1.010 to 1.014 if it stops there. I'm sure someone will be along to explain more or point out the error of my advice as i've only brett'd a few times. In saying that, the mouthfeel and flavours from the brett'd beers were way better that their FG would have indicated. Good luck and welcome to a whole new fractal!

Using Brett as a primary vs a secondary yeast is very different. You get very different flavors from the yeasts, and it doesn't ferment as far. I don't know the science, but that is my experience and also is what I get from various books on the subject.

Brett as a primary (in an oxygen rich environment) acts like a sacc yeast but has a lot more fruity flavor. Brett as a secondary yeast (in an oxygen starved environment) produces leather/farm flavors and brings the gravity much lower. I have never had it take it lower than 1.005 even as a secondary yeast, but I have only done a few beers with it as secondary.
 
Sebas83 said:
Perfect. I think you'll be happy mashing low for those guys. Especially if you have Brett in the primary. For that extra "chewiness" consider adding rye and oats to you your bill as opposed to higher mashing. That will keep that lightness around while maintaining body.

I have a black saison that I mashed low (147), then added partially caramelized figs to the primary. I pitched a high krausen saison yeast with a slow Brett (propped up from Tired Hands Wachu Saison). It is just kicking ass right now!! Really fruity and tropical with that Brett leather in there.

Sounds delicious! Once I get going and have a few batches under my belt I'd love to swap bottles with you guys.
 
Calder said:
Using Brett as a primary vs a secondary yeast is very different. You get very different flavors from the yeasts, and it doesn't ferment as far. I don't know the science, but that is my experience and also is what I get from various books on the subject.

Brett as a primary (in an oxygen rich environment) acts like a sacc yeast but has a lot more fruity flavor. Brett as a secondary yeast (in an oxygen starved environment) produces leather/farm flavors and brings the gravity much lower. I have never had it take it lower than 1.005 even as a secondary yeast, but I have only done a few beers with it as secondary.

My initial experiences will be using it as a primary yeast, and I'm sure I'll have some follow up "is this beer done" questions I post on the first few batches. I have the ability to keg and avoid the whole bottle bomb risk but I'd rather bottle condition everything to be honest.

Calder, in your experience, When you've used Brett in primary, do you eventually get some of the leather/funk as time goes on?
 
pantsmachine said:
My understanding and experience with Brett C is that you can pretty much forget about looking for a medium bodied beer. The Brett C i am using takes beer down to 1.000 to 1.003. Admittedly this is being used during secondary fermentation. Nonetheless i see no reason why it will not continue to reduce the sugars in any beer until all(or vast majority) are spent. I might be missing something here(regular occurrence) but you should treat all brett'd beers as serious sugar eaters and don't bottle at 1.010 to 1.014 if it stops there. I'm sure someone will be along to explain more or point out the error of my advice as i've only brett'd a few times. In saying that, the mouthfeel and flavours from the brett'd beers were way better that their FG would have indicated. Good luck and welcome to a whole new fractal!

Thanks man! I appreciate the reply.
 
Re:kegging. It's cool to keg, but time in bottles will show you the true breadth of what Brett does. Use cork and Belgian bottles though ;)

Having the same beer change so much over time is really amazing. It's what makes homebrewing awesome. That is, when it's a good beer. Ha!
 
I will definitely do some corked and caged bottles down the road - don't have a corker yet though. I've got 2 cases of bombers and have been stocking up on other sizes as well.
 
That'll do well. The Brewing Network episode on Brett is really quite informative. Especially on experiences with bottling and temperature. Brett beers can turn into gushers within a few degrees. Serve cold, let warm up.

Good luck!!
 
I just got my yeasts in and I have a couple questions the White Labs American Farmhouse: I'm planning on doing a simple saison with this one, per the suggestions on this thread. First thing, should I make a starter? Since this is a blend of both saison and Brett yeast, if I make a starter, do I give the saach strain too much of a head start and throw off the balance. Second question: will the Brett flavors in this one develop and increase with bottle conditioning time?
 
You can make a starter if you want. When you get those blends the brett will only work as a secondary fermenter. It's going to take about six month, maybe more, to reach FG. It's going to have plenty of time to build up a sufficient number of cells.
 
1) unless its significantly underpitching, I wouldnt bother with making a starter with the farmhouse blend. saison yeast is a beast and the brett will metabolize any of the potential excess esters. since it's just the two strains, no harm in making one tho.

2) since it'll act like a secondary addition, yes. im not totally sure with as a primary since I usually keg it a few weeks before bottling. the braggot I bottle conditioned was definitely much funkier a year later tho, but any others i haven't kept around long enough to kno
 
I am going to try a test batch this week, if at all possible. Let me know what you think of this recipe. I don't want too much to get in the way of the brett c.

2.5 gallon batch

4 lbs Belgian Pilsner (80%)
1 lbs Munich (20%)

0.5 oz. French Strisselspalt (60 min)
0.5 oz. French Strisselspalt (flameout)

OG: 1.058
IBU: 30
SRM: 5.2

Pitch a 2x stepped up starter of the White Labs Brettanomyces Claussenii.

I have the Munich in there mainly for color adjustment. I know there were some suggestions to add acidulated malt, but I don't have any. Let me know what you think of the grain bill - I want it to be simple but not boring.

I also thought about making the flameout addition 1.5 oz., as I do have two ounces of the Strisselspalt, but I think I've been overdoing it with late additions on all my other beers (if there is such a thing). I think I'm going to go with 0.5 ounces @ flameout and if after fermentation and conditioning is complete, if it needs some more hop flavor, I'll dry hop it with that last ounce.

This will get bottle-conditioned in bombers and thicker walled Boulevard 12 oz. bottles. Let me know what you think!
 
The waiting will blow out a lot of hop aroma and much flavor. That's why a lot of lambics use aged hops and are only in for bittering.

Just a thought though. My experience with late hop additions in bretts is quite low.
 
The waiting will blow out a lot of hop aroma and much flavor. That's why a lot of lambics use aged hops and are only in for bittering.

what waiting? an all brett beer doesnt take much longer than a normal sacch beer.
 
I think I'm just gonna pull the trigger and brew it. Desperately need more fermentation space though, wow.

Also considering doing a dubbel or quad (something dark and Belgian) with the WLP510 and then letting some Jolly Pumpkin & Boulevard Saison Brett dregs go nuts on it in secondary.
 
Burgs, Im going down this road for the first time at virtually the same time you are. I brewed a 15 gallon batch of Jamil's Best Bitter, 10G for Burton Ale yeast and 5G got a 1L starter of Brett C as a 100% Brett fermentation.

Im kind of jumping in feet first but fermentation took off pretty quickly, probably under 6 hours. I was expecting a bit of lag time with the Brett but I guess not. For the first 2 days (pitched on Monday) the Brett was giving off a ton of Sulfur.

I woke up this morning and its slowing down, still a bit of Krausen but definitely slowing.
 
Burgs, Im going down this road for the first time at virtually the same time you are. I brewed a 15 gallon batch of Jamil's Best Bitter, 10G for Burton Ale yeast and 5G got a 1L starter of Brett C as a 100% Brett fermentation.

Im kind of jumping in feet first but fermentation took off pretty quickly, probably under 6 hours. I was expecting a bit of lag time with the Brett but I guess not. For the first 2 days (pitched on Monday) the Brett was giving off a ton of Sulfur.

I woke up this morning and its slowing down, still a bit of Krausen but definitely slowing.

Cool, since you are doing a similar 100% brett c beer - feel free to post more replies and let me know how it goes, when it finishes up, etc.

I'm wondering if I can get away with making a starter for the brett tonight and brewing with it tomorrow instead of stepping it up multiple times, since I'm only using it on a 2.5 gallon batch.
 
Tasted my Brett C pale ale yesterday, gravity at 1.014 after 10 days in primary. The Krausen dropped a few days ago so I figured I'd check it out. Here are my notes.

"Aroma: Not a ton of Brett aroma but I can pick it up after a few whiffs. Smells a bit hoppy, tiny bit of roasted malts.

Taste: Roasty upfront then the hops hit you and it finishes with a bit of funk. It almost has the after taste of soy sauce, I'm not sure how I feel about that but it's only 10 days in primary so there is likely work to be done yet."
 
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