Victory as a base malt?

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confuted

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I've brewed several all grain beers, and lately I've been curious about what would happen if I used Victory or biscuit malt for a very large portion of my grain bill (50+?). I like the taste of these two malts, and I think it could be fun to make a beer that tastes like biscuits - but I can't find any references to other brewers attempting such a concoction.

What could (would?) go wrong? Supposedly Victory has the diastatic power to convert itself; would I still get a lot of unfermentables? Any thoughts on taste or hops? Has anyone tried it?
 
I've heard that it does not have the diastatic power to convert itself, but it seems that it might be able to be converted if you have a base malt with enough diastatic power. Maybe do 50/50 6-row/victory? I'm curious to see how this turns out.
 
P[EASE IGNORE THE FOLLOWING BRAIN FART..

Victory has a Lintner value of about 50L.

If 1 pound of malt needs 30L just to convert itself, Victory has 20L extra (enough to convert 2/3 of a pound of a malt with 0 Lintner, like chocolate or crystal).

bosco
 
There are reasons it's not used as a base malt. One is it is low in diastastic power, and so won't self convert. The second is flavor. A quarter pound is very noticeable in a 5 gallon batch- 1 pound would be extremely "dry" tasting in the finish. More than about a pound or so would be nearly undrinkablee.
 
There are reasons it's not used as a base malt. One is it is low in diastastic power, and so won't self convert. The second is flavor. A quarter pound is very noticeable in a 5 gallon batch- 1 pound would be extremely "dry" tasting in the finish. More than about a pound or so would be nearly undrinkablee.

:confused:bosco:confused:
 
I misread the first post, sorry.:confused:. Maybe this will help:

9 pounds pale malt (lowest value 40L) 9lb X 40 = 360

2 pounds victory 2lb X 0 = 0

2oz chocolate .12lb X 0 = 0

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
total 360L

360 L is enough to convert about 12 pounds of grain

bosco
 
Good example, but I think the OP was looking to do higher than 20% victory. For the beer I am doing I am not too worried about diastatic power. I am more worried about what yooper said about flavor.
 
So Yooper, could I get your opinion on the topic below? I was going to use 20% Victory, but that sounds like you would caution against that?

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/b-c-pale-ale-363306/#post4547487

Yes, 20% is too much in my opinion. I really like victory malt, and what it brings to the beers. It really is a nice addition, and I use it often. I've never used more than about 6-10% so I can't say how much I could tolerate but I think over 13-15% it would become a very dry flavor and very prominent so I wouldn't go above that.
 
blaaaaahhh!!! :eek: 50+ % victory malt? have you had a nut brown ale that has a distinct nutty flavor? ok, now amplify that by 8-10 times...
 
So, how much Victory would fall under: "A generous portion of lightly roasted malt..."?

Sorry confuted, for stealing your thread.
 
I really dig victory, so a while back I made a batch with about 20%. Wow, it was a good thing gone too far. After several months, it finally mellowed a bit to where it was generally tolerable but certainly not that good. Since then, I stay around 6-10 in normal beer and maybe 12 or 15 when I need a fix.

If you do go to 50% or higher please post your results.
 
Interesting all. That's a lot of great info.

I'm still interested in blowing the biscuit taste way out of proportion. How about a grain bill like this?

60 percent Marris otter
25 percent Biscuit
15 percent Victory

I'll probably keep this beer no bigger than 1.045. There's no reason to spend a fortune on an experiment like this.
 
I used 12 oz in a 1.040 blonde ale. It was just under 10%. The beer has a salty taste. I'm not sure if it is from the biscuit malt or something else. I have heard that biscuit malt can taste like a saltine cracker.
 
I used 4# Victory in a Oud Bruin sour. 10g batch. Also had 3# Special Roast. It made a fine sour. But sure, might be too much in a brown ale or similar.

Amt Name Type # %/IBU
15 lbs SB Pilsner (2 Row) Ger (1.7 SRM) Grain 1 59.4 %
4 lbs Victory Malt (28.0 SRM) Grain 2 15.8 %
3 lbs Special Roast (50.0 SRM) Grain 3 11.9 %
1 lbs 4.0 oz SB Special B / Caramel/Crystal Malt -135L (120.0 SRM) Grain 4 5.0 %
1 lbs Light Wheat (1.7 SRM) Grain 5 4.0 %
1 lbs SB Caramunich Malt I (35.0 SRM)
81.00 g Williamette [5.50 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 7 21.4 IBUs
2.0 pkg Roselare Belgian Blend (Wyeast Labs #3763) [125.00 ml] Yeast 8 -
5.00 oz Oak Chips (Secondary 7.0 days) Flavor 9 -
 
I am a Victory/Biscuit lover too. Keeping the thread on track, with a 'dry bready' flavor to the beer already, what hops and yeast would complement such a bold brew?

I wouldn't want it too dry on the attenuation side, what about London III?
 
I say try it. But if you're going to go that high on the Victory and Biscuit, might I suggest some crystal to offset the huge flavors you're lining up on the drier side of the spectrum? For a beer like that I'd go with a smaller amount of crystal but something on the darker side--like some crystal 120L to mellow the dryness/bready-ness of the Victory and Biscuit. However you decide to do it, let us know how it turns out!
 
Interesting all. That's a lot of great info.

I'm still interested in blowing the biscuit taste way out of proportion. How about a grain bill like this?

60 percent Marris otter
25 percent Biscuit
15 percent Victory

I'll probably keep this beer no bigger than 1.045. There's no reason to spend a fortune on an experiment like this.

I'm going to go ahead and call that undrinkable...but have fun! Also, why are you using Victory and Biscuit at the same time? And why are you using more expensive Marris Otter malt? Do you really think that you will be able to distinguish the toasty biscuityness of it while you have an equivalent of 'biscuits up your ass, down your throat, and out your nose' amount of biscuit malt? IMO you are seriously wasting your time, money, and effort. 10% of biscuit malt is 'over the top'. This is just death by biscuit.
 
Whoa, to each his own guys.

Remember that one mans 'all victory beer' is another mans 'bacon and maple syrup beer', or 'spruce tips and belgian yeast beer'. No one has to drink it but the brewer!
 
A member here, Alchemist, brewed a 100% peated malt beer. Popular advice is DO NOT go above about 2% with that malt. Alchemist said it was awesome and that he'd brew it again. There were a few naysayers in that thread!

The OP has been cautioned. I think he understands the risk.

I'd say go for it with the biscuit. Although, I agree there's probably no reason to have both victory and biscuit: I thought they were the same thing.
 
Victory is Briess' brand of biscuit. Our malts chart has it as nuttier than other biscuits, though I cannot say from experience whether this is true. I've made beers with 15%+ biscuit or amber, and never felt them to be too much, or even to be approaching too much. 40% might be too much of a good thing, but I just bottled a stout that was 30% brown and black malt, so I think it will be fine.
 
I just opened a Southern brown ale that I made with American pale 2-row and 18% Victory. I was using the Victory in combination with the 2-row to simulate Maris Otter. It's noticeably dry and bready, but for this beer (which was also 20% crystal and chocolate malts) it worked nicely. The experimenter in me says try brewing this several times, each time increasing the percentage of Victory. Then you can get a better feel for what effects Victory gives you.
 
sptaylor has given me a good idea. How much crystal malt would I need to add to make up for the dryness imparted by the victory?
 
sptaylor has given me a good idea. How much crystal malt would I need to add to make up for the dryness imparted by the victory?

If I had to guess I would say probably about the same proportion of biscuit you use, but that is totally 'style' dependent..but I'm not sure style really applies here. I would definitely use mostly lower/sweeter ones, but a little bit of roasty notes might be a nice addition. As for your hops, I would keep it minimal and use something clean like warrior.
 
I've used 5% or so in many pale ales, and had it blend in well. Also used 10% in several other beers, including pale ales, and have never had it be too much. To me, the idea that above 10% makes it undrinkable is not right. I wouldn't hesitate to try 20% if I could muster up a good grain bill to go with it. No immediate plans, and would try other experiments first....

Fat Tire of years past was quite biscuity. More so than the simple pale ales I made with 5%.
 
You don't need to do a full batch to see if something is a dumb idea. Brew up a 1 or 2 gal stovetop BIAB and see how it turns out. I just did a similar experiment with brown malt. I was aiming for as close to 100% that would still convert (it ended up being 60% brown, 40%pale)
 
You don't need to do a full batch to see if something is a dumb idea. Brew up a 1 or 2 gal stovetop BIAB and see how it turns out.

+1 for this. This is a great way to try out new recipes/ingredients/combinations, or to try three or four different takes on some part of your process (I've done it for no starter/shaken starter/shaken starter with cold crash) just to see how it affects your final product.
 
I'm trying it today with the 1 gallon BIAB suggestion.

1 lb US 2 Row
1 lb Victory
1 lb Crystal 60
0.4 oz Fuggles (5%)
US-04

Mash at 155F
 
I'm trying it today with the 1 gallon BIAB suggestion.

1 lb US 2 Row
1 lb Victory
1 lb Crystal 60
0.4 oz Fuggles (5%)
US-04

Mash at 155F

Cool. let us know how it turns out. btw...the 60:40 brown:pale batch i did: I boiled it up with some fuggles and repitched a bit of US05, a bit of WLP006 Bedford, and a bit of bret C at 64F. I was aiming for something like the 100% brown malt porters of the 1700s. I tried a sample and its really really fruity and sweet with a decent amount of roast character. There isn't enough for a gravity sample but it tastes like there is a lot for the bret to chew on. Maybe in 6 months it will be something interesting to drink.
 
I'm trying it today with the 1 gallon BIAB suggestion.

1 lb US 2 Row
1 lb Victory
1 lb Crystal 60
0.4 oz Fuggles (5%)
US-04

Mash at 155F

so I imagine this beer is probably ready for sampling about now. any feedback? being your 1 gal batch was 33% victory and the consensus says don't go >~10% I'm very curious as to how it tastes. your 33% crystal malt is pretty generous, though.
 
I've let this go long enough, here are some tasting notes. This is the second bottle.

1 lb US 2 row
1 lb Victory
1 lb Crystal 60
0.4 oz Fuggles
Mashed at 155F
US-04 from a previous brew
Brewed: 12/1/2012
Bottled: 1/13/2013
Tasted: 2/24/2013
OG: 1.071
FG: ??? Not a big enough batch to waste on readings.

Pours a deep red-brown with a light tan head. The head is super thick with large bubbles that collapse into a creamy head after a few minutes. The head sticks around forever.

Aroma smells like freshly cooked pancakes. I can't get past the pancakes to smell anything else. Not a bad aroma.

Tastes sweet but not in an overwhelming way. Unlike any commercial beer or style I've tried. There's a hint of the brown tangy-ness in the back, but the beer is mostly sweet and malty. Hops present, but not noticeable.

Medium mouthfeel - this isn't an imperial stout, and it isn't a watery light beer. It's somewhere in the middle, like a larger Irish red. Carbonation is about right (I think I used 1 oz corn sugar / roughly 1 gallon batch).

It's not good enough that I'll make it again, but it's no worse than mediocre. It's certainly not as bad as people thought it would be. A more experienced brewer might be able to modify the recipe into something interesting. I'm no hop head, but a slightly larger hop addition would be a good start; I feel that the beer is slightly out of balance toward maltiness.

I will note that the first beer was sampled several weeks ago and it was terrible. Maybe it was just my taste buds that day, since my fiancee didn't think it was as bad as I did -- or maybe it needed some extra time in the bottle.
 
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