SSR, Contactor? both? help me K.I.S.S

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mavrick1903

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I talked to an Elect-Eng friend and he was of the impression my ideas (gleaned from this board) were overly complex, but we did not have a chance to go over the actual schematics. Doing an Auber PID build (first electric build). Planning on a RIMS with an IGLoo for the mash tun.

Here's where I'm a little fuzzy:
I plan on one PID for the RIMS if I do go with RIMS. do I need a second for strike? I plan on having a 240v element for the boil kettle, the second PID would be for that?
Also, do I need to do an SSR, or a contactor, or both?

I guess part of the problem is I'm on the fence regarding if RIMS is the way or Fly Sparging?

Help? I've been doing tons of reading, and still seem to be confused...:eek:
 
It really sounds like you've got some process and equipment terminology mixed up. RIMS is a mash temp maintenance system/process. It really has nothing to do with how you sparge. Are you asking if you can use one controller for RIMS and for controlling the HLT for heating water? Possibly, but you'd want to be able to heat sparge water while you're running the RIMS so no, not in that case. However, if you're running a single vessel system like a BIAB, I suppose it's possible.
 
edit: damn... bobby beat me to it.

RIMS (or HERMS) and fly-sparging are orthogonal concepts. You can do a RIMS or HERMS mash and then fly-sparge if you want.

The RIMS/HERMS are just ways of maintaining your mash temp precisely throughout the duration of the mash.

If you have an insulated cooler, the benefits of HERMS and RIMS are greatly diminished because those coolers will hold the temps very well for a 1 hour mash.

If you are after electric heating and not the recirculating mash systems, then a single PID and SSR controlling a heating element mounted in a kettle is probably what you want.

That will give you the ability to heat water to a desired temp in that kettle as well as maintain the strength of a boil in that kettle later in the process.
 
side thought...

I've seen a lot of comments lately with the same confusion about RIMS being related to sparge, and I think that is coming from people looking at the Brutus 20 systems. Those are RIMS systems, but they are also no-sparge systems.
 
side thought...

I've seen a lot of comments lately with the same confusion about RIMS being related to sparge, and I think that is coming from people looking at the Brutus 20 systems. Those are RIMS systems, but they are also no-sparge systems.

so, a Brewtus 20, would use 2 pots, heating both, and recirc the mash through a coil in the BK, and are no sparge?
 
so, a Brewtus 20, would use 2 pots, heating both, and recirc the mash through a coil in the BK, and are no sparge?

Nope. They do not use a coil. mash liquid is pumped into kettle and kettle liquid is pumped into mash. What you are describing would be sort of like a no-sparge HERMS (which I am tempted to try on my system one time just for kicks).

Here's Brutus 20 info: http://www.alenuts.com/Alenuts/brutus20.html

That one shows both MLT and BK being heated with flame, but you could do it by only heating the BK with an electric element.

At the end of the mash you just stop the pump that is going back into the MLT and let everything end up in the BK.

You could also do this with a single pump, but you would need a second tier so that gravity could handle one part.
 
should have added more about the no-sparge HERMS...

I have thought about trying this for a few weeks now. I have a 15 gallon MLT and a 15 gallon electric boil kettle. I am considering adding all of my water to the MLT and doughing in and then pump it through my HERMS coil with just enough water in the electric kettle to give my coil a bath.

When mash is done, toss out that hot water in the kettle and pump everything from MLT to kettle for the boil.
 
nevermind... I am a total idiot. I didn't fully read that brutus 20 page.

He does separate mash and sparge steps, it's just a little different in that he does a recirculating mash with just a portion of the water, and then the sparge is done letting all of the liquid in both tanks flow back and forth for an hour.

So....

just f*cking ignore me. :D
 
Right, Brutus 20 is a direct fired RIMS for half the brew session, but then it becomes like single vessel BIAB but spread across two vessels for some reason. The only advantage I can see is that you can dial in a specific mash thickness other than full volume if that's an feature you wanted.
 
Id highly recommend using a contactor. They're fairly cheap on ebay. I got three for the price of one new one. Knowing that the element is off when I flip the switch is a good piece of mind for me. I'd also recommend using dual SSRs if you're using 240V. That's another topic of discussion.
 
Id highly recommend using a contactor. They're fairly cheap on ebay. I got three for the price of one new one. Knowing that the element is off when I flip the switch is a good piece of mind for me. I'd also recommend using dual SSRs if you're using 240V. That's another topic of discussion.

Agreed. Some sort of manual cut-off switch is ideal. You can get a 2-pole switch at Home Depot or Lowe's that is capable of 30A and 240V, or you can use a contactor. It works out to about the same price.
 
Agreed. Some sort of manual cut-off switch is ideal. You can get a 2-pole switch at Home Depot or Lowe's that is capable of 30A and 240V, or you can use a contactor. It works out to about the same price.

Sorry to dig up an old thread but I'm trying to get some clarity on something...what is the benefit of having a contactor/coil and SSR tandem for a 240v connection vs. two SSRs? Is it merely cost or is there something else at play, like a 110v coil for lighting or other??? It seems to me two SSRs would be best but I am totally new to electric brewing.

BTW - if i do use two SSRs can I still put a three way ON/OFF/AUTO switch?
 
SSRs can fail closed (on), and can leak current. If you run both the output hot from the SSR and the other hot through a double pole single throw contactor, with the contactor coil controlled by a switch, then when you switch the element off, you know it is off.

You have no such assurance without the contactor, whether you have one or two SSRs. The second SSR is not necessary.
 
Speaking only from my own experience building and using my RIMS and building several electric meat smokers, I strongly favor SSR's as my primary power switching control.

A contactor/relay will certainly work in most instances, but keep in mind that a PID controller can cycle the power switching device at a fairly frequent rate in a heating system .

I feel more confident that a SSR will be more durable, with no moving parts, will stand up multiple on/off cycling better than a electromechanical contactor.


The price of SSRs can be very reasonable when purchased from a surplus supplier or off of Ebay.

I am sure an SSR can fail, although I have not seen it happen. Mechanical contactors can fail in a closed state too when tne contacts weld together.
 
Speaking only from my own experience building and using my RIMS and building several electric meat smokers, I strongly favor SSR's as my primary power switching control.

A contactor/relay will certainly work in most instances, but keep in mind that a PID controller can cycle the power switching device at a fairly frequent rate in a heating system .

I feel more confident that a SSR will be more durable, with no moving parts, will stand up multiple on/off cycling better than a electromechanical contactor.


The price of SSRs can be very reasonable when purchased from a surplus supplier or off of Ebay.

I am sure an SSR can fail, although I have not seen it happen. Mechanical contactors can fail in a closed state too when tne contacts weld together.


Your not using the contactor for pulsing the heating element, instead its used as a saftey switch so that you can cut power to the element should you want to. sort of an system on/off switch

without the contactor you are relying on the pid to cut power to the element, which isnt always quick or easy
 
Thanks for setting me straight.

As a safety switch or main switch, a contactor would be a good choice.
 
SSRs can fail closed (on), and can leak current. If you run both the output hot from the SSR and the other hot through a double pole single throw contactor, with the contactor coil controlled by a switch, then when you switch the element off, you know it is off.

You have no such assurance without the contactor, whether you have one or two SSRs. The second SSR is not necessary.

As a boiler plate statement...I am not married to my design and certainly don't mind the nominal investment of two contactors. I am just trying to understand this and get all perspectives since I am getting conflicting advice. Please don't mistake my curiosity with a need to defend my point of veiw!

That said, what if I have each of the two SSRs per element controlled by a 3 way switch before the relays with an ON/OFF/AUTO switch? Would the current leakage still be an issue? I would charge one side of a two pole double throw with a constant 5v and the other with my BCS462, which will always be on since it also does fermentation control. I also plan on putting a key lock in front of all the brewery operations shutting off all current when I am not brewing but not shut off the BCS. Will any of this help significantly? If not, please disabuse me of my ignorance!
 
As a boiler plate statement...I am not married to my design and certainly don't mind the nominal investment of two contactors. I am just trying to understand this and get all perspectives since I am getting conflicting advice. Please don't mistake my curiosity with a need to defend my point of veiw!

That said, what if I have each of the two SSRs per element controlled by a 3 way switch before the relays with an ON/OFF/AUTO switch? Would the current leakage still be an issue? I would charge one side of a two pole double throw with a constant 5v and the other with my BCS462, which will always be on since it also does fermentation control. I also plan on putting a key lock in front of all the brewery operations shutting off all current when I am not brewing but not shut off the BCS. Will any of this help significantly? If not, please disabuse me of my ignorance!

I am not sure I am follwing you. Are you saying that you want to be able to force current to the element (ON), force to not pass current (OFF), or let the BCS control the current(AUTO)? If so, I'm not sure whether you would get real value from bypassing your controller and forcing the SSR to power the element at 100%. In any case, that is an additional requirement that would not be covered by the contactor configuration I described. That configuration either ensures that the element is off, or allows the element to be powered by the controller and SSR.

In your scenario, what is the DPDT device, a switch or a contactor?

The key safety feature is having a means to be sure that the element is off (even while you might want other components energized), because you cannot depend upon an SSR given the leakage and fail closed possibilities.
 
I am not sure I am follwing you. Are you saying that you want to be able to force current to the element (ON), force to not pass current (OFF), or let the BCS control the current(AUTO)? If so, I'm not sure whether you would get real value from bypassing your controller and forcing the SSR to power the element at 100%. In any case, that is an additional requirement that would not be covered by the contactor configuration I described. That configuration either ensures that the element is off, or allows the element to be powered by the controller and SSR.

In your scenario, what is the DPDT device, a switch or a contactor?

The key safety feature is having a means to be sure that the element is off (even while you might want other components energized), because you cannot depend upon an SSR given the leakage and fail closed possibilities.

The ON/OFF/AUTO is the path I have seen a lot of BCS users take on this forum (I think it is more relevent for the boil kettle and pumps than RIMS) in case the BCS or network crashes. It also helps with cleaning and tests. I was actually thinking of making the RIMS element an AUTO/OFF/ON (Momentary) switch so that I could pulse the element to keep the system at target mash temps should I need to give the system time to reboot.

Yes, I was thinking DPDT switches leading to the SSRs and SPST for all the pumps.

You are starting to convince me of the safety issues with the contactor coil and I can always save the extra two SSRs in case i need to switch one out on brew day (or expand). Any reccomendations on type fo contactor? Just a 30A 240V with a 110V coil for switches and lights?
 
Check out some hot tub wiring and how they use a contactor and controls. Same idea, it's just basically a RIMS for people.

Yes use 3 way switches with BCS, it has been extremely handy in my system.

IMO dont' stress about the momentary switch. Once you're at temp you aren't going to loose temp that quickly if you loose heat control for a few moments. My BCS has lost connection and it takes less than a minute to restore, so far. Plus if it's a total meltdown and you are unable to restore bcs control at all, you'll have other issues to contend with to save your brew day like the boil. I know I can't run my element full throttle (manual) to boil, I run 5.5k at 55% for a 13 gallon boil. You would have to stand there and flip the switch on and off for an hour, it would be horrible.
 
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