Beersmith 2 and Altitude

I found a posting from several years ago but nothing recent...

I live and brew at roughly 6900 feet, giving me a boil temperature of 200 F. I have been trying to figure out if adjustments are available in Brewsmith to account for this lower boiling temperature. I did find I could go into the mash profiles and individually adjust the boiling temperature to 200 F. However, I am still seeing infusion calcuations by the program telling me to use water at 207 F, etc. Obviously, I cannot do that. I cannot edit that 207 F infusion temperature from within the recipe mash tab. Anyone know of any other adjustments within the program that might fix this? This problem occurs in the Mash Out step.

This is set in the mash profile (Profile -> Mash). You either need to update the default mash profiles (e.g. Single Infusion, Medium Body, Batch Sparge), or create your own custom mash profile. Boiling Temperature is under the "Mash Properties" heading.

I don't understand why you are unable to get the water to 207F. IME, water doesn't stop heating once you hit boiling temps. Put a cover on the kettle/pot and you can [very easily] get it above boiling temps. Use a pressure cooker and you can do it even easier (and higher).

Either that or change over to a directly heated mash tun. I use a keg mash tun, that I heat with a propane burner. Means I can easily get to mash-out/sparge temps without adding any more water.

Pie Man - I did go through and update the boiling temperature in each of the mash profiles. This resulted in changes to the infusion additions for the various rest temperatures...but I still ended up getting temperatures higher than my 200 degree boiling temperature for the mash out step (this is where it has told me to add 207 degree or 209 degree water). I have been modifying previously entered recipes...perhaps I need to try inputting one from scratch when I get through my current brew day.

Golddiggie--the boiling point is the phase change for water from liquid to gas...while the steam can be heated beyond the boiling point, the liquid cannot...it changed to steam at 200 degree (or 212 at sea level).

I have found a rather quick work around. While I cannot change the 207 degree temperature I get on the mash tab for the mash out step (it will not let me edit that temperature), I can change the volume of the water addition. As I increase the volume of the water, the water temperature is decreased. So...with a few guesses, I can get the volume addition for my desired 200 degree temperature.

XPLSV said:

Golddiggie--the boiling point is the phase change for water from liquid to gas...while the steam can be heated beyond the boiling point, the liquid cannot...it changed to steam at 200 degree (or 212 at sea level).

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That's funny, especially since I've had a harder boil read about 214F (I'm close enough to sea level that it boils at 212F). As I mentioned, if you use a pressure cooker, you can get it far above 212F.

I think people believe that at 212F water magically changes into steam (at sea level) and you cannot go above that. Not so. That's where water starts to boil. A HARD boil will be above that in temperature. Add some pressure (via a 'pressure cooker') and you can go even higher.

The pressure cooker will cause an effect such as being "below" sea level.

I would think simply adding boiling water would be enough for a mash out. I don't think I'd worry about it too much.

XPLSV said:

The pressure cooker will cause an effect such as being "below" sea level.

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super off-topic, but i'm a nerd...in this chart, what is the "critical point" of water? what does it do?

somebody with science please enlighten me?

XPLSV said:

The pressure cooker will cause an effect such as being "below" sea level.

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It also allows you to boil at 15psi, or 250F.

I was using cooler converted mash tuns initially. Had too much issue getting up to sparge temp in them. Moved to a sanke keg (directly fired on a propane burner) and haven't had any issue since. Now I just mash, fire (and stir) to get to sparge temp, drain and fill with sparge water (also fired on a burner to temp). SO much easier to do, for me. I think there are some that use electric heaters in coolers to get their mash up to sparge temp easily. Something you might want to at least look into.

Pie_Man said:

I would think simply adding boiling water would be enough for a mash out. I don't think I'd worry about it too much.

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In general, mashing out probably isn't much of an issue with the well modified grains that are available today...so I doubt it would have much of an effect on most brews. I am more interested in the aspect of the program and if there was an adjustment parameter I missed. I had a fairly thick mash today, so I did employ a mash out more for the lauter than for stopping the starch conversions.

Arrg, the science nerd in me is coming out..... (insert picture of nerdy little guy ripping off a labcoat while turning green)

Golddiggie said:

I think people believe that at 212F water magically changes into steam (at sea level) and you cannot go above that. Not so. That's where water starts to boil. A HARD boil will be above that in temperature. Add some pressure (via a 'pressure cooker') and you can go even higher.

Click to expand...

While OT, this is completely wrong. Phase changes (i.e. liquid->gas) require energy, meaning that while you drive a substance through a phase change its temperature does not change, as the energy (heat) you are adding is being used to change the phase of the fluid, rather than contributing to heating it. This is called the enthalpy of vaporization, and for water this is 2.26J/g.

For example, if we were heating 10ml of water (0.3oz) using a heating source that provided 1 watt of heating power, the water would warm 1C every 10 seconds (water requires 1J of energy per ml to increase 1C; 1W = 1J/s). When it hit boiling temperature this increase in temperature would stop, and the water would convert to steam. It would take 2.26J/ml (22.6J) to convert our 1ml of water into steam; equivalent to 23sec of heating using our wimpy heat source.

In plain english this means is when you boil water, the temperature of the water literally stops at 100C/212F (or whatever your altitude-adjusted value is). It remains at this temperature until the phase change is complete. The difference between a simmer and a hard boil is small; less than 1C.

neosapien said:

super off-topic, but i'm a nerd...in this chart, what is the "critical point" of water? what does it do?

somebody with science please enlighten me?

Click to expand...

Phase changes are dependent on 2 things - temperature and pressure. For example, water will boil at higher temps in a pressure cooker because the pressure is higher; in contrast, water will boil in space at body temperature because there is no pressure. Critical points are points where temperatures/ pressures above them create a unique form of matter called a supercritical fluid. These "fluids" are a hybrid between a gas and a liquid - they will dissolve things like liquids do, but will engage in gas-like behaviours like effusion (moving through solids). Supercritical steam is used for power generation, so its not just a lab thing.

A similarly weird point is the triple point, where the combination of temperatures cause the substance to simultaneously exist as a solid, liquid and gas.

Bryan