Freeze concentration

Actually a misnomer, should be "freeze concentration."

I've searched the forums and noticed everyone seems to think that taking a wine or a beer and freezing it to pour off the concentrated alcohol is illegal. I'm not sure where that info came from, but our friends at Basic Brewing Radio went directly to the TTB and got a quoted statement from them saying that, for home use without the intent to sell, freezing is not a form of distillation and is therefore not illegal.

That being said, I've got some strawberry wine made from last spring that, admittedly, isn't up to par as a wine. We made this when we barely knew anything, so chalk it up to experience. However this year I'd like to make a base wine that I can freeze to make a cordial out of. Anyone have any thoughts on how to alter recipes with freeze distillation in mind? Or do you not alter them at all, simply make the wine as if it were going to be wine and freeze it?

So it's okay to respond to this thread, the feds aren't going to come after you

OK I'll admit it, I made some "apple jack" out of some hard cider / applewine. Froze a couple of 2 liter soda bottles full of a/w. After a few days in the freezer, invert them over a pitcher, depending on how frozen they are the spirits will drip out into a pitcher or waiting funnel. It was tasty, kind of like an apple brandy, I would guess it was about 20% or 40 proof.

As I understand it the downside to freeze distilling is that all of the alcohol is captured. W/ a regular still the "first" and "last" runnings or lighter / heavier alcohols are usually discarded due to high methyl/other objectionable content. Liquor distillers have a jargon that refers to this as the heads, hearts, and tails. Ideally one would like to only capture the hearts, but w/ freezing you get it all.

Probably not a problem having a belt or two, but I would not over indulge homemade spirits of this type??? YMMV

The Proulx book on Cider has an extensive section on this topic, as has Watson's cider book

wilserbrewer said:

As I understand it the downside to freeze distilling is that all of the alcohol is captured. W/ a regular still the "first" and "last" runnings or lighter / heavier alcohols are usually discarded due to high methyl/other objectionable content. Liquor distillers have a jargon that refers to this as the heads, hearts, and tails. Ideally one would like to only capture the hearts, but w/ freezing you get it all.

Click to expand...

If you're doing this to a beer (making an ice beer), this shouldn't be a problem as long as you did a good job with your main fermentation. My understanding (limited to reading - I swear!) with regular distillation is that you aren't taking as much care with your wash; if you're making moonshine, you're probably not doing much temperature control, and you're probably using one of the nasty, alcohol-tolerant yeasts that tend to produce a lot of the hot alcohols. You might be making basically a sugar wash and distilling that.

If you're doing something like a German icebier, though, you should be taking a lof of care with your base beer - using a good yeast, using temperature control, etc. - and making as good a beer as you can before doing your freeze-concentration. So, you aren't worried about having to remove the bad alcohols, since you didn't create many of them.

Even starting with a hard cider to make applejack; if you make a good cider (one that you'd drink without hesitation) to begin with, freeze concentrating it isn't going to be a problem.

When distilling the mash is the one of the most important things. I distill and I've been to a few distilleries in Scotland to taste the fine single malts they have. I've talked to the distillers and the mash doesn't go over 12% so it doesn't produce fusels, The ph must be correct, temperature must be correct et cetera et cetera
You should read a bit more There is nothing called a regular distillation. Is there a "regular" beer?

Andri said:

When distilling the mash is the one of the most important things. I distill and I've been to a few distilleries in Scotland to taste the fine single malts they have. I've talked to the distillers and the mash doesn't go over 12% so it doesn't produce fusels, The ph must be correct, temperature must be correct et cetera et cetera
You should read a bit more There is nothing called a regular distillation. Is there a "regular" beer?

Click to expand...

Well, home distillation is illegal in many places and we don't discuss it here. I'm sure that using the term "regular distillation" used in this instance is to refer to the commercial distillation, and not freeze distillation or freeze concentration.

the apple jack method is actually illegal to,but still done

In Niagara-on-the-Lake of Ontario, Canada, you can buy the very best ice wines that I know of in the world. Ice wine is different because the grapes are naturally freeze-concentrated on the vine, however, ice BRANDY, which is also available in that area, is made from normal wine that has been freeze-concentrated.

Ice brandy can have the complexity and deliciousness of ice wine, however it is also so alcoholic that you can choke on the hot booze unless you are mentally ready to basically be taking a shot of liquor.

So, freeze concentrating wine would make a delicious cordial, IMO, but it doesn't make ice wine... believe me, I've tried and will continue to try.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamaica_ginger

I just got of the phone with an oooooollllllllldd friend of mine that works in a small craft distillery and he says the feds will tag you for anything distilled in any way over about 25% due to the fact that they dont know how you made itand all commercial have some dye in them that is seen under a black light.

Least thats what i was a told.

webby

edit: sorry wrong thread

No distillation is legal.

Maybe the feds will get grumpy for any booze over 25%, but burden of proof is actually pretty strong. Unless they can demonstrate that you DID distill it, and that you DIDN'T freeze concentrate or fortify it (with legally distilled alcohol), then you will not have much difficulty defending yourself in court.

They don't generally mess with homebrewers... too little benefit for too much effort. It's the guys brewing 800 gallons of mash in a batch that they care about.

P.S. - If it has hops in it, it doesn't taste good concentrated. If you included hops in the boil then I would bet there would be no doubt whatsoever in anyone's mind that you were making beer and not liquor.

Distillation is illegal, freeze concentration is legal. Years ago James Spence of Basic Brewing Radio called the TTB and got that clarified.

So to do this you just freeze whatever you want to concentrate. As I understand there will be a small amount of liquid left that doesn't freeze and that's what you collect?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=6nnR4trUKVo

This is pretty much it in a nutshell.

That was a really good video thanks revvy, I guess I'm going to have to take a crack at my first barley wine.

an old man who told me how to make apple jack or how he made it back in the day. He told me to put my finished cider in a bucket and put it in a chest freezer and after a day or so use a screen or a sieve to dip out the frozen water. If distilling is illegal why is it leagal for all my local brew shops to display and sell stills?

Stills are legal to own as you can distill enthenol or water amongst other things, but ditilling a beer or wine is illegal.

You can own it, but you cant make alcohol with it

Rigger103 said:

If distilling is illegal why is it legal for all my local brew shops to display and sell stills?

Click to expand...

I don't know. Are they small? Less than 1 gallon capacity? In some locations it may be legal to own a still to distill water. Pointless when you can buy it by the gallon for less than a dollar.

huntingohio said:

Stills are legal to own as you can distill enthenol or water amongst other things, but ditilling a beer or wine is illegal.

You can own it, but you cant make alcohol with it

Click to expand...

To distill ethanol for fuel you still have to have a fuel alcohol permit through the TTB. If you use it on site or pump it into a gas tank it can be left as raw alcohol. If you are selling it in barrels or jugs or something else it would have to be denatured with gasoline or similar.

Rigger103 said:

If distilling is illegal why is it leagal for all my local brew shops to display and sell stills?

Click to expand...

Well, head shops are legal, aren't they?

And let's call it what it is and how the TTB refers to it, freeze concentration.

If the information I've been reading over on a British board lately

http://underdogsbiteupwards.wordpress.com/2013/03/20/can-he-bodge-it-yes-he-can/

is correct, and it sounds like it is, they're allowed to use stills to distill bioethanol to use in their motor vehicles. Of course if it doesn't come out to exactly the right proof they have to find a way to dispose of it responsibly. But the Brits are creative... they usually manage to figure out something to do with it.

:>
MJM

Wrong thread, sorry

Since knowledge isn't a criminal offense, i'll give my two cents about what i know:

Distilling, puts everything into a 60-80% concentration instead of 10-12%.

The 'foreshots' 'heads' 'hearts' and 'tails' are ALL combined in your wine, regardless of whether it's 10% or 25% after freeze concentration.

Methyls and fusels are the two keys in distillation. They're the two things you want to get rid of. They're in your wine. They're in your beer.

The difference is, they're in such small amounts in wine and beer, it's never a problem. When you concentrate it, you effectively multiply the amount in which you're drinking.
Basically, if you drink 10 ounces of wine, and 10 ounces of 'concentrated' wine, you double the amount of methanol.

That may sound scary, but in those 10 ounces at 20% abv, you're really consuming between 1/4 ounce and 1/2 ounce of methanol (depending on ingredients and mashing techniques).

Nowhere near lethal, nowhere near even harmful.

Naturally, if you drank 20 ounces of your 10% wine, you'd be consuming the same amount of methanol.

We are walking that fine line again. Don't get this thread closed.

We just had a discussion about legality, etc. in the cider forum. A few folks contacted TTB and got some good info.

Seems like its semantics: freeze concentration is OK freeze distillation not OK. It's OK to separate water from cider (freeze concentration) but not OK to separate ethanol from beer/wine/etc, whether that's by freezing (which is possible, just hard) or conventional methods, unless you have a lisence.

Also important is the 24% rule. Some officials interpret the guideline as being you cant make beverage over 24% ABV, whether that's through freezing or, I guess, making a super-yeast.

Jeep, i'm not sure if you're talking about me and that fine line. But the guy wants to freeze concentrate and is concerned about methanol. I was simply pointing out that methanol is already IN what he's made, all he's doing is concentrating it to a higher percent by volume.

Sorry Ninja, I thought this was another thread. There is another thread on applejack that kept turning towards distilling.

Methanol is formed as a byproduct of fermentation when pectin is present.

Methanol is concentrated in distillation.
Usually grains are used in making moonshine.

Pectin is always present however in small quantities.
Pectin comes from grass cuttings, starch, wood, etc.

When you use table sugar/ dextrose there is very little pectin introduced.
Also the same with fruits.

You are safe stop worrying.

Magic said:

Methanol is formed as a byproduct of distillation when pectin is present.

Pectin is always present however in small quantities.
Pectin comes from grass cuttings, starch, wood, etc.

When you use table sugar/ dextrose there is very little pectin introduced.
Also the same with fruits.

You are safe stop worrying.

Click to expand...

Iirc it's fermentation not distillation and fruit has pectin.

Inner10 said:

Iirc it's fermentation not distillation and fruit has pectin.

Click to expand...

Aw, ****.

I meant fermentation, I had to write that out twice because I wasn't logged in.

Inner10 said:

fruit has pectin.

Click to expand...

Not alot though compared to grains.

Everything is going to have Methanol in it, just a negligable amount.

Even "moonshine" mash has a negligible amount of methanol. Its just concentrated through distillation.

Getting off topic, the methanol in your wine will never be enough to hurt you, even if you freeze seperate it

Magic said:

Not alot though compared to grains.

Everything is going to have Methanol in it, just a negligable amount.

Click to expand...

So that is why you use pectin enzyme with fruit and not grain? Because fruit has less pectin? Sorry but you need to do a little more reading

Magic said:

Not alot though compared to grains.

Everything is going to have Methanol in it, just a negligable amount.

Click to expand...

It's really high in citrus fruit.

But other than that you are right, throwing out the foreshot is often overkill.

Oh help I crushed and froze my red and green California grapes and I forgot to put them in my daughters freezer when I got to New Mexico. This was just long enough for them to thaw for fear of spoiling I began the process yesterday and now have an active must in her pantry I have to leave here for Home in South Carolina in 2 weeks. If I put it in the carboy and move it will it be okay? Will I get arrested if the police stop me?
SOS Heeeeelp!!!

jetgemini said:

Oh help I crushed and froze my red and green California grapes and I forgot to put them in my daughters freezer when I got to New Mexico. This was just long enough for them to thaw for fear of spoiling I began the process yesterday and now have an active must in her pantry I have to leave here for Home in South Carolina in 2 weeks. If I put it in the carboy and move it will it be okay? Will I get arrested if the police stop me?
SOS Heeeeelp!!!

Click to expand...

A little off topic, but I would worry much about it. Don't get stopped. If you do don't advertise it unless the officer asks about it.

Very interesting read folks.

Did the mods just change the title?

Anyone Freeze concentrate EdWort Apfelwein(original recipe). What is the the final product like?

BamaProud said:

Anyone Freeze concentrate EdWort Apfelwein(original recipe). What is the the final product like?

Click to expand...

Yup. Like 2x Apfelwein. It's quite warm, but tasty.

Thanks, I actually searched all 11,000 replies to the original Apfelwein thread and found some discussion starting at post #8642.

I think I need to go ahead and start another 5 gal batch, as of now I have 5 ways I want to try my first batch. Plain, backwseetened, carbed/plain, carbed/backsweetened and now freeze concentrated.