90 minute "boil" recommended??

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Beestin

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I have the Northern Brewer extract kit for their Red Ale. The instructions note that "Lakefront recommends a 90-minute boil for this recipe, making the first hop addition with 60 minutes remaining" The instructoins then go on to talk about steeping the grains and then bring the water to a boil and add the 1st addition of hops at hte 60min mark.

Queston: Are they including the steep time in the 90 minutes? OR are they saying i should steep, then bring to a boil for 30 min before adding the first hops at which point i'd have 60 min left?? 90min actually boiling?

Here are the insturctions:
http://www.northernbrewer.com/documentation/beerkits/FixedGear_Pro_Lakefront.pdf
 
I think it wants you to boil for 90 minutes, but I'm not sure what the point is if the first hops go in at 60 minutes. If I was doing it, I'd ignore that direction. I would just steep, take the grains out, get it to boiling, add my hops and a bit of the extract, then add the remaining extract with a couple minutes left in the boil.
 
Steeping for 90 minutes means to soak the grains for conversion. Then once that is done the boil is a standard 60 min.

Edit. Wait. Seems like that part must be a typo unless they want you to caramelize sugars or something. Odd
 
From the instructions you linked to (look under middle column, 'Procedure'):

ON BREWING DAY

2. Collect and heat 2.5 gallons of water.

3. For mail-order customers grains for extract kits come
crushed by default, but if you requested uncrushed
grains, crush them now. Pour crushed grain into
supplied mesh bag and tie the open end in a kno t. Steep
for 20 minutes or until water reaches 170°F. Remove
bag and discard.
 
I'm guessing it's a matter of the basic instructions not being well edited with the Lakefront-specific instructions. If it were me, I'd steep, add a small amount of extract, then boil for 30 minutes. AT 30 mins, I'd add the first hop addition (60 min) and continue the boil for the next 60 minutes.
 
It looks like the 90-minute boil is just a recommendation. You don't have to do it if you don't want to. It looks like you'll have a tasty brew either way.
 
This is a common steeping method...the steep time has nothing to do with the boil time. Once you reach a boil, start your timer. At 30 minutes in, start adding hops per schedule.
 
Beestin, if you're new at this, I would recommend following the instructions with regard to when hops should be added.
 
A lot of brewers prefer a 90 minute boil depending on the beer style (Jamil for example) because it caramelizes a bit more and brings out more melanoidins in the wort to give it a more malty flavor. It's not crucial but it might be nice in a red ale.
 
I missed the part that the OP referred to as well. Here is the text of it from the leftmost column

NOTES:
Lakefront recommends a 90-minute boil for this recipe,
making the first hop addition with 60 minutes remaining.

I still think it is caramelization. Reds tend to be more on the sweeter/maliter side.
 
Caramelization reactions require a high sugar-to-water ratio; we're really talking about malliard reactions here; not true caramelization because a normal gravity wort boil has too much water for true caramelization. (P.S. Yes, I wish I could spell, too.)

There are 3 reasons often given for 90 minute boils:
1. When using light lager malt to boil off DMS pre-cursors to avoid the nasty canned corn off-flavor -this is a legitimate reason, IMHO but not if you're brewing an extract based beer (nor if your base malt is well modified pale malt) as most DMS has been driven off in the process of creating the malt extract -ESPECIALLY if you're dealing with DME/"spray malt"
2. To increase hop utilization (the difference from 60 minutes to 90 minutes in utilization is so small it's probably not worth your time and electricity/gas- just use a bit more hops
3. Super malty, sweet, caramel -flavored beers -see: Scottish ales (Wee Heavy especially), bock / doppel bock -personally this also just isn't worth it -if you're doing this at a normal boil gravity you're really just getting malliard reactions and you can simply use a bit of malliard malt; if you truly want caramelization reactions or lots of malliard reactions you can take the first thick syrupy runnings (or a small bit of your wort with a high extract to water ratio) and cook it down on a pan on your stove top and add it -you'll get way more caramelization / malliard reactions in a much shorter time with the concentrated wort


Adam
 
biertourist said:
Caramelization reactions require a high sugar-to-water ratio; we're really talking about malliard reactions here; not true caramelization because a normal gravity wort boil has too much water for true caramelization. (P.S. Yes, I wish I could spell, too.)

There are 3 reasons often given for 90 minute boils:
1. When using light lager malt to boil off DMS pre-cursors to avoid the nasty canned corn off-flavor -this is a legitimate reason, IMHO but not if you're brewing an extract based beer (nor if your base malt is well modified pale malt) as most DMS has been driven off in the process of creating the malt extract -ESPECIALLY if you're dealing with DME/"spray malt"
2. To increase hop utilization (the difference from 60 minutes to 90 minutes in utilization is so small it's probably not worth your time and electricity/gas- just use a bit more hops
3. Super malty, sweet, caramel -flavored beers -see: Scottish ales (Wee Heavy especially), bock / doppel bock -personally this also just isn't worth it -if you're doing this at a normal boil gravity you're really just getting malliard reactions and you can simply use a bit of malliard malt; if you truly want caramelization reactions or lots of malliard reactions you can take the first thick syrupy runnings (or a small bit of your wort with a high extract to water ratio) and cook it down on a pan on your stove top and add it -you'll get way more caramelization / malliard reactions in a much shorter time with the concentrated wort


Adam
Click to expand...

Well said.
 
So if i'm getting your comments correct - they really are saying to steep grains for 20 min, then bring to boil for 30.... then add extract & first hop addition with "60 remaining" correct? I get that i dont have to do this but didn't understand if it was a typo or what. If they were referring to the steeping in the "90 min boil" recommendation the times wouldn't add up.

Also I see 2 comments to add "a little bit of the extract" at the time recommended and one comment to "add the rest of the extract with a few minutes remaining" <-- why would i do that?

This is my 2nd brew so i will likely stick with whatever the directions say... which leads to this post since i'm not sure if i'm on a full on boil for 90 min with nothing but the steeped grain sugars for the 1st 30 or not.
 
Sorry didnt' see 2nd page with the post by biertourist...
1) i'm not using lager malt (right?)
2) how would the hops be better utilized if they're not going in under 60 min left? the 1st 30 min of the boil per the instructions are just boiling the steeped grain sugars - unless i'm reading it wrong which is my question
3) its a red ale so this doesn't seem to apply
 
I would just do the 90 min boil and see how you like it. Maybe you can compare it to a 60 minute boil sometime and see if there is any difference. I think that's what brewing is all about, trying out different stuff to see what you like.

I think biertourist was talking about hop utilization if you were to add the bittering addition at 90 minutes. He was just saying that is a reason people might do 90 minute boils, but he wasn't talking about your kit specifically.

The reason you should add most of the extract at the end of the boil is because LME will darken up if it is boiled for the full time. It's already been boiled when it was processed so it really just needs to be sanitized which can actually be done by adding it at flameout. Adding at flameout will also help to start cool the wort.
 
Beestin said:
So if i'm getting your comments correct - they really are saying to steep grains for 20 min, then bring to boil for 30.... then add extract & first hop addition with "60 remaining" correct?
Click to expand...

Yes. But don't forget to remove the grains before boiling.

Beestin said:
Also I see 2 comments to add "a little bit of the extract" at the time recommended and one comment to "add the rest of the extract with a few minutes remaining" <-- why would i do that?

This is my 2nd brew so i will likely stick with whatever the directions say... which leads to this post since i'm not sure if i'm on a full on boil for 90 min with nothing but the steeped grain sugars for the 1st 30 or not.
Click to expand...


The recommendations of the others are good ones, but since you're new at this I would recommend following the instructions for your first few recipes so you can get a feel for the process. Good luck on the Red and let us know how it turns out.

And welcome to the obsession!
 
Beestin said:
Also I see 2 comments to add "a little bit of the extract" at the time recommended and one comment to "add the rest of the extract with a few minutes remaining" <-- why would i do that?
Click to expand...

Hop utilization (the amount of nonsoluble alpha acids that you convert to soluble iso alpha acids during boiling; aka the amount of bitterness/IBUs that you actually get out of your hops) is directly proportional to your boil gravity; if you're boiling on a small pan on the oven your wort is very concentrated and has a high gravity which will decrease your hop utilization resulting in less bitterness than the recipe. (Assuming that the recipe was built with an assumption of a lower gravity boil.) Saving the extract till close to the end like this gets you more IBUs out of your hops. -It also results in less wort darkening which is a common complaint when using extract.

As these recipes normally don't spell out what boil gravity they were created at, it's really guess work unless you plug the recipe into a brew tool like BeerTools or BeerSmith and figure it out.

-For light colored beer styles and styles with high hop bitterness I'd definitely save half of the extract for the last 15 minutes of the boil; beyond that it doesn't matter too much.


Adam
 
Beestin said:
Sorry didnt' see 2nd page with the post by biertourist...
1) i'm not using lager malt (right?)
Click to expand...

You're using extract; so not lager malt. #1 doesn't apply.


Beestin said:
2) how would the hops be better utilized if they're not going in under 60 min left? the 1st 30 min of the boil per the instructions are just boiling the steeped grain sugars - unless i'm reading it wrong which is my question
Click to expand...

They wouldn't be so #2 isn't a reason to do a 90 minute boil here, either...


Beestin said:
3) its a red ale so this doesn't seem to apply
Click to expand...

Taadaa! Now you understand why a couple of people have chimed in that the 90 minute boil is unnecessary. Having said that, this particular brewer might be trying to get extra melanoidins and color development from the longer boil, regardless of whether it's commonly done in a Red Ale; it might be done in THEIR red ale.


Isn't beer awesome? With everything else I've ever done the novelty eventually wears off but brewing just get more and more awesome and just continues to reward your increasing efforts. Best hobby EVER!


Adam
 
biertourist said:
Hop utilization (the amount of nonsoluble alpha acids that you convert to soluble iso alpha acids during boiling; aka the amount of bitterness/IBUs that you actually get out of your hops) is directly proportional to your boil gravity; if you're boiling on a small pan on the oven your wort is very concentrated and has a high gravity which will decrease your hop utilization resulting in less bitterness than the recipe. (Assuming that the recipe was built with an assumption of a lower gravity boil.) Saving the extract till close to the end like this gets you more IBUs out of your hops. -It also results in less wort darkening which is a common complaint when using extract.
Click to expand...

I've actually read from a number of sources that the gravity of the wort has much less of an impact on hop utilization than previously thought. It's the protein precipitates from the hot break that the iso-alpha acids cling to and are thus removed from solution with the hot break. Extract has already been boiled during it's processing and usually has a relatively small amount of hot break material. But, even if you add it late in the boil it is still going to go through the hot break stage so any iso-alpha acids will still adhere to what little hot break the extract has. If I use extract, I usually add it late in the boil, but only for coloring reasons.

biertourist said:
Isn't beer awesome? With everything else I've ever done the novelty eventually wears off but brewing just get more and more awesome and just continues to reward your increasing efforts. Best hobby EVER!
Click to expand...

Beer IS awesome! I completely agree! There is always new information and techniques to learn about and it never gets old! :mug:
 
peterj said:
I've actually read from a number of sources that the gravity of the wort has much less of an impact on hop utilization than previously thought.
Click to expand...

This statement by itself is a bit misleading. All the utilization formulas show clearly that boil gravity is still the #1 factor impacting utilization; some of the formulas were created by doing lab tests with different factors changed and then observing the results and fitting the results to a curve.

There are definitely other factors that impact the amount of isomerized alpha acids that make it into your beer glass including as you mentioned acids clinging to break proteins and also yeast cell walls. There way, WAY more factors that impact the total perception of bitterness way beyond actual iso alpha acids and beta acids in the beer, too BUT wort gravity has a very significant impact on utilization; this really isn't in question.


Adam
 
biertourist said:
This statement by itself is a bit misleading. All the utilization formulas show clearly that boil gravity is still the #1 factor impacting utilization; some of the formulas were created by doing lab tests with different factors changed and then observing the results and fitting the results to a curve.

There are definitely other factors that impact the amount of isomerized alpha acids that make it into your beer glass including as you mentioned acids clinging to break proteins and also yeast cell walls. There way, WAY more factors that impact the total perception of bitterness way beyond actual iso alpha acids and beta acids in the beer, too BUT wort gravity has a very significant impact on utilization; this really isn't in question.


Adam
Click to expand...

I would say it is in question, and I don't believe it has as big of an impact as the IBU formulas incorporate. I definitely agree with you though that there are MANY factors the impact the perceived bitterness of a beer like hop flavor, aroma, and probably a bunch of other chemical compounds that I don't really know about. There's a pretty good discussion about it in this thread: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f37/late-addition-hop-utilization-188394/
 

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