Saison 3724 how fast is too fast to raise the temp

Just started a partial mash saison fermenting about 32 hours ago. (Afternoon on 3/9/13)
5 gal glass carboy.
OG: 1.058 (on the dot for the recipe)
pitch temp: 72 wyeast 3724 from bag directly at 72 degrees as well. (I know, should have done a starter, however this bag was REALLY new, puffed up fast and full, not worried about that).

Ambient temp in my house right now is 64-72 (Colorado)

So... I let ferm start wrapped it in a sleeping bag stuffed in a big round plastic tupperware. Fermentation signs at 4 hours, full on krausen blow off by this morning (5-6 bubbles per second at least), really looking good especially for not using a starter. Still going strong, 2 bubbles per second 32 hours later.

-Temp rose naturally to about 76. I have a heat pad I was planning on sticking under the whole get up to get into the 80s and keep the climb going.
-My Problem: Heat pad can "stay on" indefinitely but does not have a thermostat per say, lowest it goes is ~82 or 83. So, if I put the pad under my whole get up it will rise to that temp pretty quickly. Would this be bad (kill my yeasty friends), or should I apply that heat intermittently over a few days? I can see it getting up there in a day if just left with heat. After the initial heat I can step it up gradually but 82-83 is just the lowest setting.

I'm thinking the activity will naturally keep it around 76 till day 2 or 3, when should I apply the heat pad?

Really don't want to use an aquarium heater and have read most forums on 3724 but could just use some advice. New poster, newer to brewing. Thanks and Cheers!

If it stays at 76 for a few days that is fine. 3724 can slow down after the first part of fermentation, so get the temp up for it to finish. I usually take it to the high 80's or even 90 after a few days. Doing this I have always had it finish up without slowing down.

I brewed a saison this winter with fermentation temp naturally settling at 74 on the second day. I rose the temp 2 degrees per day for the next 3 days to 80 and held it there for 4 days. By day 6 the SG had dropped from 1.061 to 1.012. I then took the heat off , let the temp fall back to 68, and held it there another week. I did dump trub out of my conical on day 3 and 6, so you might want to rack off of the trub once you hit your terminal gravity.

Thanks guys! I plan on starting the temp ramp today. Is it to fast to go from 76 to 82 in under 24 hours?

Also, recipe says FG will be 1.012 (seems high to me). I've heard this stuff can dry out far beyond. Would hate to rack and bottle at 1.012 prematurely, especially considering it is known for hanging out around there for a few days. 3 day rule still apply for no change in FG or should i go a week with no change?

Recipe:
5lb Pils LME
1lb Munich LME
.5lb Golden naked oats
.5lb honey malt
.5lb table sugar.

Jlaw3000 said:

Also, recipe says FG will be 1.012 (seems high to me). I've heard this stuff can dry out far beyond. Would hate to rack and bottle at 1.012 prematurely, especially considering it is known for hanging out around there for a few days. 3 day rule still apply for no change in FG or should i go a week with no change?

Recipe:
5lb Pils LME
1lb Munich LME
.5lb Golden naked oats
.5lb honey malt
.5lb table sugar.

Click to expand...

The BJCP style guide calls for Saison to rand in OG from 1.048 to 1.065, with FG from 1.002 - 1.012. You mentioned in your first post that OG was 1.058 - close to the top of the range. My last Saison started at 1.061 and finished at 1.012 (measured on day 6 and say 14), and most of the recipes I've seen finish in the 1.010 - 1.013 range. Based on those two reference points, I'd expect yours to finish pretty close to 1.012, maybe 1.010. I think it would be a stretch to get to 1.002 - and may require higher fermentation temperatures.

I don't think you'll hurt anything waiting a few extra days to see if the gravity will drop as long as you rack of the trub after a week or so. Keep in mind that the higher the temperature and the longer your yeast stays there, the more yeast "funk" you'll introduce to your Saison. Funk isn't bad in a Saison - in my opinion it's a hallmark of a Saison - just something to be aware of.

I'm an all grain brewer and have very little experience brewing with LME, so I can't really comment on your recipe - but the sugar should help dry the beer out some, so you may get to your lower target. Here's a link to my recipe if it will help you in any way - http://www.brewtoad.com/recipes/saison-du-rivage.

So if you want to, got hot, go long, and see if you can get to a lower FG. I hope you'll post your results. Good luck!

prandlesc said:

The BJCP style guide calls for Saison to rand in OG from 1.048 to 1.065, with FG from 1.002 - 1.012. You mentioned in your first post that OG was 1.058 - close to the top of the range. My last Saison started at 1.061 and finished at 1.012 (measured on day 6 and say 14), and most of the recipes I've seen finish in the 1.010 - 1.013 range. Based on those two reference points, I'd expect yours to finish pretty close to 1.012, maybe 1.010. I think it would be a stretch to get to 1.002 - and may require higher fermentation temperatures.

I don't think you'll hurt anything waiting a few extra days to see if the gravity will drop as long as you rack of the trub after a week or so. Keep in mind that the higher the temperature and the longer your yeast stays there, the more yeast "funk" you'll introduce to your Saison. Funk isn't bad in a Saison - in my opinion it's a hallmark of a Saison - just something to be aware of.

I'm an all grain brewer and have very little experience brewing with LME, so I can't really comment on your recipe - but the sugar should help dry the beer out some, so you may get to your lower target. Here's a link to my recipe if it will help you in any way - http://www.brewtoad.com/recipes/saison-du-rivage.

So if you want to, got hot, go long, and see if you can get to a lower FG. I hope you'll post your results. Good luck!

Click to expand...

Great information, thanks for your time! I'll be sure to post results. I have found TONS of threads on people weighing in on the use of 3724 but only 5 or 6 people documenting their actual experience with it well.

It stayed at 76* overnight last night in my 64* spare room (sleeping bag ftw) and I put the heat pad under before I went to work this morning and gave it a slight swirl (still chugging along, 1-2 bubs per second) . Hopefully it doesn’t get too warm too fast.

I too love the funk (plan on taking it to the high 80s), two relatively new breweries here in Fort Collins have some AMAZING saisons (Funkwerks and Black Bottle Brewery). So at least I know what I'm shooting for

Would gladly hear others thoughts on ^^^! Another update soon. Thanks again,

I remember seeing an e-mail from White Labs or Wyeast floating around somewhere where they recommend 90 deg F from the start with this yeast strain. I've heard DuPont starts at 95. So based on that, you can't raise the temp too fast.

zachattack said:

I remember seeing an e-mail from White Labs or Wyeast floating around somewhere where they recommend 90 deg F from the start with this yeast strain. I've heard DuPont starts at 95. So based on that, you can't raise the temp too fast.

Click to expand...

Here's the verbiage from Wyeast's website - it indicates high temperatures if there's a stuck fermentation -

"This strain is the classic farmhouse ale yeast. A traditional yeast that is spicy with complex aromatics, including bubble gum. It is very tart and dry on the palate with a mild fruitiness. Expect a crisp, mildly acidic finish that will benefit from elevated fermentation temperatures. This strain is notorious for a rapid and vigorous start to fermentation, only to stick around 1.035 S.G. Fermentation will finish, given time and warm temperatures. Warm fermentation temperatures, at least 90°F (32°C), or the use of a secondary strain can accelerate attenuation.

Origin:
Flocculation: Low
Attenuation: 76-80%
Temperature Range: 70-95F, 21-35C
Alcohol Tolerance: 12% ABV"

I've used the White Labs equivalent (Dupont) twice and both times finished at ~90% within 7 days. I start at 70, let it ramp naturally as high as it will go, about 72, then ramp to 76 for two days, then ramp to 80 for 2-3 days or until FG. I mash at 144 for 1.5 hrs, then at 152 for another 1 hr., which I think is key to finishing saisons quickly.

Have you tried WL 585 Saison III? That also makes a wonderful saison and does not require high temps (mine finished at 92% at 74F). Not sure what the Wyeast equivalent is.

Cheers!

Well just for an update.

It's almost 60 hours after pitch, got it up form 76 to 80 over the course of the whole day with the heat pad, seams to be steady at 80 now and will leave over night. Activity really started to slow down to about 1 bubble every 10 seconds but is still churning a good amount. Planning on raising another 2-4 degrees tomorrow and giving it a good swirl before bed and in the morning. Otherwise smells pretty tasty, looks pretty good, lots of floaties though, this yeast is REALLY active the first 48.... blew off even more than wyeast British ale yeast in my porter a few weeks ago.

Hoping it doesn't hold form and hang out around 1.035 for a few weeks/month. I read wyeasts website (thanks though prandlesc) before use so I was kinda prepared. I was mainly fearful that too quick a temp rise could shock the little fellers.

Well just for another update. Today is day six and I'm up to 87*

Temp schedule so far below:
Day 1: pitch temp 72*
Day 2: wrapped sleeping bag in large plastic container in sun (no light exposure) go it up to 76.
Day 3: heat pad under the container in ferm room up to 78.
Day 4: turned up a level up to 82
Day 5: up another level to 84
Day 6: got up to 87-88. Still churning slowly, no flocc yet. Bubble every 15-20 seconds.

Going to leave here till FG then let it get back down naturally to high 60s (ambient) to clear up and bottle. Not going to do a secondary, I like my saison kinda cloudy. All this sound good to you guys?

Took a grav reading day 3 and was already 1.04 (from 1.058 ) so thinking its on track. Ill take another one once it floccs, if grav is on target off goes the heat pad

Based on my somewhat limited experience with the yeast, once you cross the 1.030 to 1.025 mark you should be in great shape. If it does stick, try to get the temp to 90. But I'm guessing you'll be fine based on the progress so far.

welcome to HBT!

Jlaw3000 said:

-My Problem: Heat pad can "stay on" indefinitely but does not have a thermostat per say, lowest it goes is ~82 or 83. So, if I put the pad under my whole get up it will rise to that temp pretty quickly. Would this be bad (kill my yeasty friends), or should I apply that heat intermittently over a few days? I can see it getting up there in a day if just left with heat. After the initial heat I can step it up gradually but 82-83 is just the lowest setting.

Click to expand...

suggestion: use a lamp timer to turn your heat pad on and off (examples). try to keep the on/off periods small and switch often - do 30 mins on and 30 mins off, instead of 12 hours on and 12 hours off. i use the cheap model with the little tabs you flip up and when ramping i'll typically do one on, two off (33% power); then move to one on, one off (50%); two on, one off (67%) and finally switch to always plugged in (100%).

Jlaw3000 said:

Took a grav reading day 3 and was already 1.04 (from 1.058 ) so thinking its on track. Ill take another one once it floccs, if grav is on target off goes the heat pad

Click to expand...

i'd be concerned that since activity seems to be dying down, but you're not even in the 1.030's yet, that you're not headed for the dreaded Dupont stuck fermentation. if you don't want to wait weeks for this to finish up, you might consider adding a different secondary yeast.

once you do hit FG don't take off heat pad right away. give the yeast a day or two to clean up and be absolutely certain that you've hit FG. just because the recipe predicts FG doesn't mean you'll hit it exactly. you could end up higher or lower... it's just a prediction.

best of luck!

Thanks for the advice ^ . You called it, today I'm at 88* and just took a gravity reading at 1.035...... Gonna just keep the temp holding steady at this point and wait for a while. How long should I wait till I add 3711 or a Brett of sorts? Any suggestions on something tasty to finish it off? a bit sour would be alright with me!

Honestly, I'd make a pint size (500ml) starter of something fairly neutral such as WLP001 "cal ale" or wyeast equivalent. You don't need a huge starter, as you just want to wake up the new vial of yeast. You're not trying to grow more at this point.

That amount of starter active yeast pitched at that warmer temperature should finish up the remaining sugar and dry the beer out nicely. Whatever you do, DO NOT pitch anything (other than Brett) directly in. With the amount of alcohol present at this point, without waking up and getting the yeast active they'd fall to the bottom. It's imperative that they already be consuming sugar. Make yourself that small starter to activate them and pitch it at high krausen and you'll make a great saison.

Jlaw3000 said:

Thanks for the advice ^ . You called it, today I'm at 88* and just took a gravity reading at 1.035...... Gonna just keep the temp holding steady at this point and wait for a while. How long should I wait till I add 3711 or a Brett of sorts? Any suggestions on something tasty to finish it off? a bit sour would be alright with me!

Click to expand...

saison + brett is an awesome combo, but as you probably know it'll take some time. you'll wanna give that bad boy 3 months, minimum, before bottling (with 6 being safer).

3711 will dry you out nicely, otherwise something neutral like 1056/wlp001 would work great. as HopHouse suggested, be sure to make a starter with these and pitch the whole thing at high krausen. they need to already be active before you pitch them. i would make a 1 liter starter, but a half liter probably works too.

It has only been a week. Step away from the fermenter and let the yeast do it's job. You got the temp up, so let it sit for at least another week or two before you do anything. Until you give the yeast a proper amount of time to finish, you do not know that you even have a problem. If after another 1-2 weeks and it is still stuck, then think about doing something. You are trying to cure a problem that you don't even know exists.

^ I needed to hear that. I shall not touch for a week and see what happens!

beergolf said:

It has only been a week. Step away from the fermenter and let the yeast do it's job.

Click to expand...

I agree! The yeast seems to be continuing its work - give it some time.

Leaving it alone has been great. It has been at a very stable 88* for several days now and activity has picked back up (never stopped by any means, just slowed down). Churning rapidly and bubbling every 5-8 seconds again.


So.... To answer my own question, 12* in 3 days was probably a bit too fast and my yeasty friends have probably acclimated now and are back to work. Or this yeast is just as strange as everyone says it is and I am having a normally strange experience.... Either way it smells wonderful and I'm excited!

Now for more leaving it alone till it flocks and clears up. Ill update again.

Somehow my heating pad got a mind of its own yesterday morning and decided 95 is its new lowest setting...... so now my ambient is around 93 degrees and my wort is around 90-93 but holy jeez does this yeast like it! Everything still smells wonderful and its been going nuts the past few days, still going to hold of on a reading till fermentation stops but I'm pretty confident this last hurah took me well below the dreaded 1.035.

Well like I said the yeast really liked that raging inferno of a set up. Fermentation pretty much stopped the day after my last post and FG stayed at 1.006 For 3 days. Did a minor cold crash (let it go from 93 down to 65' over the course of a couple days and bottled late last night. Initial taste test was delicious, citrusy, minor funk (the good funk) and it sure did not taste like a 7% beer. Ill update with full taste test in a month or so.

Jlaw3000 said:

Well like I said the yeast really liked that raging inferno of a set up. Fermentation pretty much stopped the day after my last post and FG stayed at 1.006 For 3 days. Did a minor cold crash (let it go from 93 down to 65' over the course of a couple days and bottled late last night. Initial taste test was delicious, citrusy, minor funk (the good funk) and it sure did not taste like a 7% beer. Ill update with full taste test in a month or so.

Click to expand...

Great news. You did great being patient and getting to that FG. I can't wait to hear how you like it at the next tasting. I made 10 gallons earlier this year and just tapped the second keg, and am really enjoying it.

Hey so.... Am I going to have to keep my battles above 70 to carb up? Or will they yeast just do their work slowly...ambient is about 68 now. Trying to get then warm sound like a disastrous idea...