Finally Brewing a Biere de Garde

Biere de Garde(BdG)

11 lbs Pils
3 lbs Munich
.75 lbs CaraVienne
.0625 lbs Black Patent

1.5 Oz Fuggles @ 60 minutes
Orange Peel, Lemongrass, and GOP @ 15 minutes(small amount)

Primary Yeast: Wyeast Bohemian Lager at low ale temps
Secondary Yeast: Brett(not sure which yet)

Mash @ 147F
OG: ~1.075

Jamil's grain/hop bill for a BdG, Mike T's yeast and fermentation temp choices for his BdG, New Belgium's spice and Brett addition for their BdG(sorta). I really like the taste of Mike's where he used the equivalent lager strain from whitelabs for his Biere de Garde. My plan is to mash low and ramp up the temp(not to the eighties though) to get a dry beer, and then add the Brett at bottling if the FG is low enough.

What do you guys think? The spices and Brett are just to make it a bit more 'interesting', and will hopefully be very restrained.

I think it sounds very interesting.

Now that Iahve my third lager in primary I am sampling commercial ales again, and widening my Belgian horizons.

Would this qualify as a sort of beginner level Belgian recipe? I think it sounds yummy.

Poindexter said:

Would this qualify as a sort of beginner level Belgian recipe? I think it sounds yummy.

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Its not a typical belgian style, and may even be more french, but in any case it is more like a lager than anything else to me. Just listening to Jamil's podcast the other day it means something like "beer to guard" and should be lagered for a while, etc. The Brett may or may not be historical, but its definitely not the style today. Because maltiness and sweetness do not always go hand in hand, I'm hoping my end result will be malty but very dry from the Brett. I'd say brew whatever you want, don't be shy to try stuff even if you think its beyond your skill level. I'm not sure how this one will turn out, but Jamil's recipe is proven if you want to go with his. Good luck.

Hmm, I'm going to have to listen to that podcast again. This recipe calls for a lager yeast to be ramped up through high ale temps? That's interesting. When you talk about lagering it, are you going to let it ramp up, then do a true, cold lagering?

the_bird said:

Hmm, I'm going to have to listen to that podcast again. This recipe calls for a lager yeast to be ramped up through high ale temps? That's interesting. When you talk about lagering it, are you going to let it ramp up, then do a true, cold lagering?

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No, the podcast doesn't call for a lager yeast, Jamil likes the euro ale. The lager yeast idea from my friend Mike is from Farmhouse Ales, where they recommend(paraphrase) an ale yeast at colder temps, or a lager yeast at low ale temps. I think the 'lagering' process is similar to 'true' lagering where you're aging for an extended period at cold temps. If you look at my original(I realize its not the clearest) post, the grain/hop bill is from Jamil, but the yeast and procedure is from Mike. My plan is to lager in the bottle, I believe on the podcast he recommends bottling and then aging the beer.

How high would you increase the temperature during the "ramp up" phase?

the_bird said:

How high would you increase the temperature during the "ramp up" phase?

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The low 70's, up from 66-68F which will be held for the first couple days. Not exactly sure, I need to ask Mike about this and if he thinks it necessary.

Looks like a cool recipe, can't say I have ever heard of the style. Also Just saw you where going to bottle with brett, I was asking about this the other day. I read an article from a brew at orval talking about this is how a lot of Belgians used to be bottled. How low of a FG do you shoot for to do this?

Ryanh1801 said:

How low of a FG do you shoot for to do this?

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I wouldn't do it above 1.009. I've only done it once with a saison that was somewhere 1.007-1.009 before adding Brett at bottling. I think unless they are opened right out of the fridge and then allowed to warm up, they will gush a bit. In other words, they're a bit overcarbed, but seem to be steady/safe now. They're very dry, sause compared them to Orval, so the gravity has definitely dropped quite a bit.

ahh ok cool, I figured it would need to be even lower than that.. So im guessing for these you use 750 bottles only? Im gonna do a trippel and a saison with this method.

Ryanh1801 said:

ahh ok cool, I figured it would need to be even lower than that.. So im guessing for these you use 750 bottles only? Im gonna do a trippel and a saison with this method.

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I probably should, but not all will be done this way. If they get overcarbed I'll just re-cap.
I live on the edge

landhoney said:

I probably should, but not all will be done this way. If they get overcarbed I'll just re-cap.
I live on the edge

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haha.. Well thats good news for me cause I only have about 3 gallons worth of 750's right now, but have some other heavy bottles. Let us know how this beer turns out, might be something I have to brew.

I just realized this is technically a lager because I used a lager yeast, which means its my first lager in almost a year Its going well at 64-68F, I probably won't finish it up any higher than that. I'm also going to only add brett to half the batch, assuming the FG is low enough. I ended up adding GoP, Coriander, Lemon and Orange peel, and Lemongrass but in a verrry low amount. It may be too low, but I wanted it to only be barely perceptable.

I made a BdG with a lager yeast, fermented around 60F. Turned out to be a great beer, but I know I didn't "garde" it for long enough. I'm sure if I had it would have been even better.

I didn't do my homework on this yeast, from Wyeast:

YEAST STRAIN: 2124 | Bohemian Lager
A Carlsberg type yeast and most widely used lager strain in the world. Produces a distinct malty profile with some ester character and a crisp finish. Will ferment in the 45-55°F range for various beer styles. Benefits from diacetyl rest at 58°F (14°C) for 24 hours after fermentation is complete. Also used for pseudo-ale production with fermentations at 75°F, (24°C) which eliminates sulfur production.

Looks like my worries about getting into the low 70's are not a problem for this yeast.

Its a Biere de Funk now, not a bad name. To further my dislike of iodophor( just joking, unless the beer turns out great-then it will be my favorite) it didn't sanitize my Better Bottle well enough. I've read for wild ales you should use Star San because its better for killing the bugs, not sure why. But because my new LHBS in FL doesn't carry it, I am now a iodophor user. I should have known better but I racked my Biere de Garde into the Better Bottle I blended my Flander Red(s) into the previous day, after sanitizing well enough I thought. A couple days ago up pops the pellicle, super fast, already thick with huge golf ball size bubbles. My first unintentional infection in a while, but hopefully they're the good bugs from the Roeselare. I dumped the dreggs of an Orval in last night to ensure there are at least some good bugs( Brett B) in the beer. We'll see how it turns out, the beer was pretty dry at racking, so I'm not sure how much character the bugs will provide.

Here's a picture, its so thick I decided to try an experiment. Since the pellicle is supposed to protect the beer from oxidation and other infections like acetobacter(which needs O2) I removed all the liquid from the 'S'-style airlock. Now the beer should get more O2, and maybe develop more Brett character as the Brett should like the increased O2 levels. Hopefully the pellicle will get thicker.

If the beer is ruined so be it, it was not supposed to 'infected' like this(most likely from the Flanders being in there - but maybe a more 'wild' infection) - so it may not have turned out well anyway. I'll be sure to post updates and how the beer turns out in the end.

WOW, that is a hell of a pellicle, bet it turns out to be your best beer to date!

On a side note, non of my brett beers have formed a pellicle, is this normal? Or am I doing something wrong.

Ryanh1801 said:

WOW, that is a hell of a pellicle, bet it turns out to be your best beer to date!On a side note, non of my brett beers have formed a pellicle, is this normal? Or am I doing something wrong.

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I think it is normal, some do and some don't. But I think(from reading somewhere) it has something to do with the other bugs in the mix. The other reason I say that is my recent Bourbon Brett Cherry Quad, which until recently never formed a pellicle. I used a little of it to blend in with my Flanders, and once the Flanders was done I placed the oak dowel from it into the BBC Quad. A few days later and a pellicle is forming, part is from the exposure to O2 I think(the Brett using the air) but the other thing is now Pedio/etc. are in the mix. The pellicle is very frothy/bubbly right around the dowel, which indicates to me that the bugs are working in the wood well.

I think you've only used single strains of Brett and no other bugs correct? Try one of the yeast/bacteria blends and I think one may form.

I had always heard that you should keep a seperate set of buckets and carboys for your wild fermentations...I never really thought it was that big a deal but this is certainly an interesting example of why.

I like the idea that it may be the same bugs from the last fermentation though, so perhaps this will turn out to be a suprisingly good sour beer.

Heres to science

My Brett L. (added in secondary to a dubbel, at 1.012) formed a pellicle, or it either got one hell of an infection. Tastes good, though!

landhoney said:

I think it is normal, some do and some don't. But I think(from reading somewhere) it has something to do with the other bugs in the mix. The other reason I say that is my recent Bourbon Brett Cherry Quad, which until recently never formed a pellicle. I used a little of it to blend in with my Flanders, and once the Flanders was done I placed the oak dowel from it into the BBC Quad. A few days later and a pellicle is forming, part is from the exposure to O2 I think(the Brett using the air) but the other thing is now Pedio/etc. are in the mix. The pellicle is very frothy/bubbly right around the dowel, which indicates to me that the bugs are working in the wood well.

I think you've only used single strains of Brett and no other bugs correct? Try one of the yeast/bacteria blends and I think one may form.

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Yeah, I have only used single strains so far, well except for the Berlin Weisse, I have going now. Ill have a mix going in one more month when I move.:rockin:

OK, I may be an idiot...

I'm drinking Flying Dog's Garde Dog, the only Biere de Garde I've had the pleasure of sampling. Really nice - light, but a little spicy, a little fruity. The question is...

This reminds me a LOT of a saison. I know they're pretty closely related, but what's the difference in styles really supposed to be? This almost tastes like a bit of a watered-down saison (which may be more how this example is made versus what would be typical). What are you really trying to accomplish that's different by brewing the biere de garde versus a saison?

This is from BJCP:

"Related to the Belgian Saison style, the main difference is that the Bière de Garde is rounder, richer, sweeter, malt-focused, often has a “cellar” character, and lacks the spicing and tartness of a Saison."

I'll add:

"Flavor: Medium to high malt flavor often with a toasty, toffee-like or caramel sweetness. Malt flavors and complexity tend to increase as beer color darkens. Low to moderate esters and alcohol flavors. Medium-low hop bitterness provides some support, but the balance is always tilted toward the malt. The malt flavor lasts into the finish but the finish is medium-dry to dry, never cloying. Alcohol can provide some additional dryness in the finish. Low to no hop flavor, although paler versions can have slightly higher levels of herbal or spicy hop flavor (which can also come from the yeast). Smooth, well-lagered character. No diacetyl. " -BJCP

If a Saison is all about the yeast, then IMO this is nothing like a Saison(traditionally at least) because it doesn't use a Saison-like yeast. The couple examples I have had weren't like a Saison at all; well-lagered character, toasty, toffee-like sweetness, and low to moderate esters.

I'm reading some of the Garde Dog reviews on BeerAdvocate, and I'm basically agreeing with the consensus; it's not a terribly exciting example of the style, a little bland (no one on BA rated it higher than B+)

It's a good farmhouse/saison copycat for the American palette. Not very wild or challenging, but tasty and light on the funky stuff that sometimes goes great but oftentimes flops in such attempts.

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This must be the Blue Moon of Biere de Gardes; easy to drink but a pretender to the style

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So, I guess I just need to keep looking for a better example, this wasn't really a fair comparison. Not especially strong on the malt, not especially toasty or sweet... more "restrained" than anything else.

I got a ton of toasted character from the garde dog...nothing like I've ever had before.

It was a good beer, but as you point out, bird, nothing exceptional.

my favorite version of this style so far is the Two Brother's Domaine Dupage French Country Ale. no idea if its typical of the actual french and belgian examples though.