Help needed with "Mash in, Mash out and fly sparge"

My eff was only 55% for a 10gal batch of WIT. My last 3 brew batches were all +/- a % point off of 55%, so at least I’m consistent.

I found the option in beersmith for the mash in and then mash out option, and then to fly sparge. (not what I used for the WIT though, I used mash in then fly sparge, I followed the instruction perfectly temp, water, time still only 55%, the grain crush was perfect as well. Thanks Mike from Stilly Mashers of Arlington.)

I use a 3 keg Herms system, 2 pumps.

If I use the mash in, mash out and fly sparge the instructions look like below.

Mash in 8.84 gal of water at 162.5 deg, strike water, ok easy
Mash out 5.00 gal of water at 207.4 deg <== confusing part for me.. WTH, do I do here?

Then fly sparge 3.46 gal of water at 168.5 deg, ok easy

My question would be does this mean I have to light the burner under the mash tun to bring up the temp to 207 then sparge 5 gal out then start the 3.46 gal of fly sparge water at 168?

Only been brewing AG since, new years eve. I’m trying to stop over compensating with grain for low Eff.

here is a pic for reference.

I don't fly sparge so my advice my be off and I hope a more experienced brewer will chime in.

3 gallons of sparge seems low to me. If I were you, I would mash as you are, direct fire to mash out (168 F), then fly sparge until your runnings are 1.0xx or pH is x instead of volume.

A more experienced fly sparge person would have to fill in the x's in the gravity and pH above.

Hope this at least gives you some ideas.

Beersmith is telling you to do an infusion of water at near boiling to raise to mash out temp. Since you have a burner for your mash tun you can light the burner and raise it to mash out, without adding water. To up your efficiency you will want to utilize as much sparge water as you can. For efficiency woes that low with a ten gallon batch you should be looking at your crush, and since you fly sparge you will also have to look at the time it takes you to sparge, as well as possible channeling.

I have never done a wit, that includes mostly wheat correct? If I remember correctly some wheat doesn't convert unless you have enough base malt. Again I don't have any experience with wits so take this last statement with a grain of salt.

Edit: I just reread you had herms, you can heat your sparge water to mash out temp while running herms to bring your mash to mash out temps.

Thanks!!!

My 2 brews before the WIT were a ipa and a dead guy clone, i got the same EFF of 55%

I'm adding all the info i get here to my folder so i can try one thing at a time to figure this out.

edit 1. he WIT is mostly pale 2 row with oat, and wheat flakes added

edit 2. Oh i have been draining the mash tun at 150 then fly sparging at 168, from what you just typed i need to bring the whole thing up to 168 before i sparge at all.. now thats easy to do.

ColeR said:

Thanks!!!

My 2 brews before the WIT were a ipa and a dead guy clone, i got the same EFF of 55%

I'm add all the info i get here to my folder so i can try one thing at a time to figure this out.

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That is quite a rig you have got yourself. If you are struggling with efficiency across different brew styles I'd be more interested in a detailed description of your brew day process to figure out what's going wrong.

phoenixs4r said:

That is quite a rig you have got yourself. If you are struggling with efficiency across different brew styles I'd be more interested in a detailed description of your brew day process to figure out what's going wrong.

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give me a bit and i'll get it typed up. and post it.

Here is a normal brew day, that I hope has some changes

1. Fill herms up heat to 150
2. Fill up BK to 162. Strike water
3. Put grains in MT
4. Add strike water to MT.
5. Stir grain bed to avoid clumping in the MT
6. Start herms pump up and follow time sheet (60, 75, 90 min?)
7. When time limit was up I would then start to pump wort to BK @150deg, very slow
8. would bring herms water up to 168.
9. When the wort @150deg was sparged out to just at top of grain bed I would Start adding 168deg water to top of grain bed for the fly sparge. very slow about 45 min.. to do this
10. Once desired volume was in the BK boil, do additions as normal.
11. Boil down for the time limit,
12. cool asap,
13. Transfer it,
14. add yeast.

relax

i think steps 7 - 9 are where i need to adjust things

I would bring herms water up to 168 before draining the mash tun, also, I believe in fly sparging, you don't want to add water after you drain, you drain while adding water. You want to control the flow so that the entire process takes an hour.

phoenixs4r said:

I would bring herms water up to 168 before draining the mash tun, also, I believe in fly sparging, you don't want to add water after you drain, you drain while adding water. You want to control the flow so that the entire process takes an hour.

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THANK YOU!!!

thats what i gathered from reading your above comments. i read on other posts you have made, your getting 90%, one day maybe i'll get there

Please don't think you need to get that high. I would take 75 percent every since brew day then bouncing back and forth between 80-90%. Making a great beer the first time is only half as great as being able to make the same beer, every time.

phoenixs4r said:

Please don't think you need to get that high. I would take 75 percent every since brew day then bouncing back and forth between 80-90%. Making a great beer the first time is only half as great as being able to make the same beer, every time.

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ya being consistent, is very important first,

new process

1. Fill herms up heat to 150
2. Fill up BK to 162. Strike water
3. Put grains in MT
4. Add strike water to MT.
5. Stir grain bed to avoid clumping in the MT
6. Start herms pump up and follow time sheet (60, 75, 90 min?)
7. When time limit was up I then start to heat up Herms to 168.5
8. When the wort is @168deg start sparging out to BK and start fly sparging water at 168deg. very slow to take 1hr.
9. Once desired volume was in the BK boil, do additions as normal.
10. Boil down for the time limit,
11. cool asap,
12. Transfer it,
13. add yeast.

Just to rule out your system as the culprit, try a batch sparge. When you are done with the mash (do an iodine test), vorlauf and drain the mash tun completely dry. Then add all the sparge water at 175f and stir like mad, more than you think necessary. Then vorlauf and drain again. At this point you should have your total preboil volume.

I don't mean to slag on fly sparging, I do it myself. If your mashtun filter is not properly set up though, fly sparge may not give you the best results.

I guess that if you have 55% eff there is something wrong with either your mash conversion or your lautering.

Compared to your system I've got a ghetto brew set up (cooler and keggle) but I end up with 75-80% with either a batch or fly sparge.

Good luck

ColeR said:

new process

1. Fill herms up heat to 150
2. Fill up BK to 162. Strike water
3. Put grains in MT
4. Add strike water to MT.
5. Stir grain bed to avoid clumping in the MT

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Just out of curiosity, why don't you just heat your strike water in your MLT and pour the grain into the water?

texasbrewer73 said:

Just out of curiosity, why don't you just heat your strike water in your MLT and pour the grain into the water?

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Dont know why. i think i'm doing it this way as one of the sticky threads at the top explain to do it the way i was, although that may work for his system it may not for mine.

you see these are the ideas i need,

next brew (in 2 weeks) I will keep the strike water in the MLT add the grains, then do the steeping and sparging as "Phoenixs4r" has suggested.

its frustrating, cuz my nieghbore who has the exact rig is pulling 78%, he is currently batch sparging, soon to move to Herms and fly sparging.

Thanks!!

This is a idea i will to my book of things to do if my next batch doesnt change, again its take one step at a time to find the problem,

Northcalais40 said:

Just to rule out your system as the culprit, try a batch sparge. When you are done with the mash (do an iodine test), vorlauf and drain the mash tun completely dry. Then add all the sparge water at 175f and stir like mad, more than you think necessary. Then vorlauf and drain again. At this point you should have your total preboil volume.

I don't mean to slag on fly sparging, I do it myself. If your mashtun filter is not properly set up though, fly sparge may not give you the best results.

I guess that if you have 55% eff there is something wrong with either your mash conversion or your lautering.

Compared to your system I've got a ghetto brew set up (cooler and keggle) but I end up with 75-80% with either a batch or fly sparge.

Good luck

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I just asked because it would save you a step. No sense in transferring if you don't have to. Are you testing for starch conversion (with iodine)? Also - what calculation method are you using to determine your efficiency? 50-55 seems really low for your set up - even before tweaks to your process.

Phoenix made some good suggestions. Assuming you've converted all the starch, direct fire your mash tun to mash out. Then start lautering and sparging - keep an inch or two of water above the grain level.

Hope this helps! I use a similar method and I get about 75% efficiency - a level I'm happy with.

I’m using BeerSmith to get my Eff%,

I’m always looking for ways to make the brew day shorter, so having the water in the MLT will do that.

haven’t used the iodine test yet, as i have read up on how to do it yet or what results i would be looking for

Try using this calculator: http://www.tastybrew.com/calculators/gravity.html

For the iodine test, its simple. Get a couple drops of wort and put into a white dish (I use a soy sauce dish for sushi). Place a drop or two of iodine on it. If you see any purple, the starches haven't been converted yet. For grins, try it when you start your mash too. This was the same test done in Jr High science/high school chemistry, but with real world application.

texasbrewer73 said:

This was the same test done in Jr High science/high school chemistry, but with real world application.

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I'm pretty sure i barely passed that class, if i passed at all. now i have to remember it for real world applications, we are all doomed..

I would make sure all your water volumes are correct. If you are off in your water measurements your efficiency numbers will be off as well. Maybe have your neighbor come over and watch you brew to see if anything is off. I would raise your mash temp a few degrees and make sure your thermometer
Is calibrated if your mash temp is too low it could cause your efficiency to suffer as well.

BrokenWrench said:

..... and make sure your thermometer
Is calibrated if your mash temp is too low it could cause your efficiency to suffer as well.

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everything i have checked, everytime, my mash was at 150deg for the WIT

I use 2 thermometers,
1st, I calibrated in boiling water to 212deg.
2nd, is a hand held Infrared point and shoot.

and both read about the same, +/- a deg..

i would measure the HERMS water then the mash to make sure they were the same.

But I will double check all my thermometers in any case.

Thanks !!

p.s.
I cant have my neighbor come over!!! all he would do is gloat !!! but i would do the same to him... plus he has a link to this thread......... not sure why hasnt posted something bashing me..

OK, after skipping out on work yesterday, I decided to brew. After all said and done and trying the suggestions listed in this tread, i got my Eff% to 72.6% up from a average of 55% (over 4 brewing sessions) according to Beersmith. YYYYAAAAA!!!!!!

NOW, I think another problem to fix is. slowing down my sparging process. BUT.... When I use either pump with regular water it will start cavitating after 15-20min, if i mix a small amount wort or (sugar) back to fly sparge liquid, all is good, the sugar is acting as a lubricant. This happens every time, the liquid flow doesn’t matter when restricted by the ball valve.

What I want to know, has anyone used a correct rheostat with beer pumps?

and again thanks for the help with my Eff%, 72.6 i'm very happy with that!!!

ColeR said:

OK, after skipping out on work yesterday, I decided to brew. After all said and done and trying the suggestions listed in this tread, i got my Eff% to 72.6% up from a average of 55% (over 4 brewing sessions) according to Beersmith. YYYYAAAAA!!!!!!

NOW, I think another problem to fix is. slowing down my sparging process. BUT.... When I use either pump with regular water it will start cavitating after 15-20min, if i mix a small amount wort or (sugar) back to fly sparge liquid, all is good, the sugar is acting as a lubricant. This happens every time, the liquid flow doesn&#146;t matter when restricted by the ball valve.

What I want to know, has anyone used a correct rheostat with beer pumps?

and again thanks for the help with my Eff%, 72.6 i'm very happy with that!!!

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From what I've read a rheostat won't help. But I can't give you an answer why not.

Also, your pumps should not being giving you issues with water, its the liquid that lubricates the pumps, not the sugar. There may be a problem with the pump head or the way they are connected, can you provide pictures? Also, are they March or Chugger pumps?

they are both the new chugger SS pumps, just released.. .a month ago...

I'll try to remember to take some pics tonite, i had them apart to clean them before the brewing had begun. and put them together nice and neat. as noted before it has happened to both.

After 15-20min, (edit _ of normal operation) i have to power down and then back up the pump pushing water due to cavitating, water temp was 168, after getting tired of powering up and down the pump i decided to open the valve to allow a small amount of Wort to mix with the water the cavitating would stop. thats why i assumed the sugar was acting as a lubricant.

the pump pushing Wort from the MLT running at the same temp never had the issue.

i was thinking of the rheostat, to....control the both motors with matched speeds, allow both ball valves to be wide open, the flow should be the same as well then. in turn lower RPM would mean less cavitating. see my train of thought. and yes trains do crash... Mmm

Interesting, they seem to be setup properly. You can email chugger and see if they have any idea. They are very quick to respond but their answer are typically quite lacking


Those are not SS (stainless steel) pumps btw and if the pump is cavitating for 20 minutes before you shut the pump off, its most likely fried now. I may have read that part of your post wrong, slightly confusing.

Also look for air bubbles in the line. I had to zip tie my lines on the inlet side on my last brew day. Had no problem with them leaking for 5 brew days, then randomly they leak. Pissed me off.

I have the same issue. It's a pain to stop the pump, burp the line and move on. A co-worker thinks it the bubbles that form when the water is heated. He created a Tee connection that allows the bubbles to escape before they even get to the pump, but I don't have any details. I'll see what I can find out and post later on.

texasbrewer73 said:

A co-worker thinks it the bubbles that form when the water is heated.

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i might set up a test with just cold water and see what happens..

Is your valve on the input or output (looks like output)? I read a thread where it was mentioned that it was better to have it on the output to limit flow, and keep the pump wet. Not something I know much about, just what I saw, so it could be very wrong. Let's hear it from those who know for sure....

tryn2brew said:

Is your valve on the input or output?

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Its on the output side, the output points up, Soooo air bubbles should rise out of the pump. thats the idea anyway.

ColeR said:

i might set up a test with just cold water and see what happens..

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Been running cold water through each pump for over a hour, both are working perfect. So it has to do with the hot water,is it bubbles is it the impaler or the post expanding due to the heat. Don't know.