First Parti-gyle

I wish to make a 2.5 gallon batch of Barleywine and a 5 gallon batch of Amber.
My grain bill right now is
12lb 2 row
12lb MO
1lb Crystal 80
Do I mash as if it is a 7.5 gallon batch or a 10 or do I just mash at a certain thickness without regard to batch size?
Does anyone have suggestions? Is it really just as simple as collecting first runnings for the BW, then business as usual for the Amber?
Thanks for everyones input below is what became of it...

*EDIT*

This experiment yielded exactly what I was looking for in terms of gravity.
I ended up with 3 gallons of 1.100 Barleywine and 5.5 gallons of 1.050 "Amber"
The "Amber" I was shooting for is lacking the proper color and is a nice pale ale.
I think will call them Fat Man and Little Boy

Mashed at 151 for 60 minutes, collected first runnings of 4 gallons.
Double batch sparge to collect 6.5 gallons for PA

Fat Man Barleywine
60 min 0.4oz Warrior pellet
60 min 0.4oz Chinook pellet
10 min 1.0oz Cascade pellet
10 min 1.0oz Centennial pellet
Dry Hop 1.0oz Cascade pellet
Dry Hop 1.0oz Centennial pellet
~106 IBU

Boil: 90 minutes
Cooled to 70
I whipped it with a balloon whip to aerate
Pitched on a 1056 yeast cake from The Wise clone and was bubbling before the second batch was done boiling.


Little Boy Pale Ale
60 min 0.8oz Galena pellet
15 min .8oz Citra pellet
0 min .8oz Centennial pellet
Dry Hop .5oz Cascade pellet
Dry Hop .5oz Amarillo pellet
~38 IBU.
Boiled for 60 minutes
Cooled to 70, pitched one packet rehydrated S-05

With 25 pounds of grain (mashing 24, I'm guessing) I'd think you could treat it as a 7.5 gallon batch and the first runnings should be really high gravity.
Since I have never done this before, take it with a grain of calcium carbonate, but whatever you do, document it so you can tweak it next time.
Congrats on boldly going where you have never gone before.

http://www.brewingtechniques.com/library/backissues/issue2.2/mosher.html

The article and related links will help you determine your average gravities. My gravities for partigyle are slightly different but its close enough for a good approximation. I do a 50/50 split when I do this, I use a double batch sparge, my first runoff is the big beer. Then the next two sparges are my small beer. I just adjust my water to grain ratio and account for water loss due to grain to get the amount a wort I want for the first runoff. My next two sparge additions are just the volume of wort I want for the small beer considering the grain has already absorbed what it will. All volumes are pre-boil.

This can easily work for you in a 33.3/66.6% split like you are proposing. If you are off in your desired gravities you can also blend the big and small beer to get what you want. There is also an article in the latest Zymurgy pertaining to this as well.

Another technique for getting more out of your second beer is adding some grain to the mash after the first running. Let it sit for 20 min or so and sparge. This can add more color and flavor to the second considering the most desirable portion of the wort was drawn off in the first beer. For your batch size and style I would consider adding 0.5 - 1.5 lbs of a light - med crystal malt.

Hope this helps,
Will

Thanks Will,
I'll take a look at that when I get home.
You also answered and a question I had about a way to add some specialty grainfor the Amber.

You might find my old thread helpful, it is a "real time" thread of me going from not being able to get my head around crunching the numbers for a partyguile, to actually coming up with a recipe...All live online with the help of other folks. There are plenty of links and spreadsheets and articles crooss linked in it.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f36/lets-partyyyy-gyle-pumpkin-porter-ale-one-mash-74927/

Thanks Revvy,
I am sure that will deliver just what I need.

With that much grain, I would take the weak 3rd runnings, add 3 lbs of pale DME and get a 3rd brew from it.

That's only $12 and some hops for a nice 5 gallon brew.

I'm trying this myself and first off let me add that Revy's thread is very helpful especially the spreadsheet in post #22 and the description given by Joe Camel in post #68 about the easy way to do the numbers in BeerSmith.

That being said I'm attempting to do Parti-gyle with a Scottish Wee Heavy (SG of 1075) and Scottish 60 (or 70) (SG of 1030-45)
I have come up with the following recipe:
20 lbs Maris Otter
2 lbs Crystal 60L
0.5lbs Chocolate Malt

80% Efficiency gives me 676 points per gallon which could mean 6 gallons at 1075 and 6 gallons at 1038 respectively. My only question what should I do to try and make sure I get both separate gravities and not 10 gallons somewhere in the middle? I know my systems efficiency but I'm basically trying to determine the efficiency of my 1st 5 gallons which I've never done before.

Is it standard to assume 60% comes from the 1st half of the runnings and 40% from the second half???

At the moment my plan is to mash and brew like normal and get max efficiency out of the first 5 gallons if its 1075 great, if it's higher I can cross-dilute with later runnings, my only concern is if its lower what I'll do, if its a little off I'll live if its way off I'll either have a longer boil or add some DME to get it up to where I want it.

Thanks to Will and Revvy's therad I think am comfortable enough to give this a go. It appears that 25lb grain bill is probably way more than I need for what I plan so I will probably play it by ear once I get the BW runnings out of the way. I may just collect runnings and see what volume i end up with and brew whatever I get.
My next hurdle is whether or not I should add corn sugar to help the FG come down enough. I did this with an IIPA i did and I don't think I like the flavor it imparts.

As far as Yeast for the BW I have an ESB on 1056 that I was thinking about pitching it on. I realize not everyone is for this practice for a regular gravity beer. Would this be enough, too much or just right for 2.5 gallons?

Veinman said:

Is it standard to assume 60% comes from the 1st half of the runnings and 40% from the second half???

Click to expand...

I like to think this is why I've always measured my first runnings gravity and volume for every beer I've made, in anticipation that one day I'll do a partigyle. As you probably know, a thicker mash will generate higher gravity first runnings but the amount of water used is less efficient at extracting sugar. I haven't brewed the same beer twice so this might explain the variance I've seen but the thickest I've mashed at was 1.3qt/lb and I was able to extract as little as 55% and at most 62% of my total sugars, keeping my final pre-boil volume the same. At 1.5qt/lb, I've seen as low as 63% and as high as 69%, again, same pre-boil volume. At a 2.5qt/lb mash I extracted 73% of my sugars in the first drain (I batch sparge). By recording my numbers, I'll be able to dial in my water:grist ratio and expect a specific gravity of a specific volume, regardless of style. I won't be dead on everytime but to me it does not matter. I can always blend, add sugar or dilute.

14thstreet said:

I like to think this is why I've always measured my first runnings gravity and volume for every beer I've made, in anticipation that one day I'll do a partigyle. As you probably know, a thicker mash will generate higher gravity first runnings but the amount of water used is less efficient at extracting sugar. I haven't brewed the same beer twice so this might explain the variance I've seen but the thickest I've mashed at was 1.3qt/lb and I was able to extract as little as 55% and at most 62% of my total sugars, keeping my final pre-boil volume the same. At 1.5qt/lb, I've seen as low as 63% and as high as 69%, again, same pre-boil volume. At a 2.5qt/lb mash I extracted 73% of my sugars in the first drain (I batch sparge). By recording my numbers, I'll be able to dial in my water:grist ratio and expect a specific gravity of a specific volume, regardless of style. I won't be dead on everytime but to me it does not matter. I can always blend, add sugar or dilute.

Click to expand...

So the trend in your numbers would lead me to believe that since I want 67% or more extraction in my 1st runnings I should be mashing thinner in the 2 qt/lb range for my mash-in and adjusting my sparge water numbers accordingly correct?
Again more than 67% can be blended down but thinner will be a bit of a problem. I'll keep 2 qts/lb as a mash-in number now to see if my MLT can hold all of that.

I had a little time to start dialing in the BW:

Recipe info in OP

I went ahead with my Parti-gyle today and it was a big success.

My recipe was:
22lbs of Golden Promise
0.5lbs of Roasted Barley

My process:
1. I mashed in with 31L of water and held it at 155 for an hour
2. 1st gallon of runnings was boiled down on the stove to 5 cups of liquid
3. After draining mash in I sparged with 15L held at 170 for 15 minutes and drained
After this drained I had 7.25 gallons of runnings that constituted the Wee Heavy and started the boil as usual with the 6 cups of kettle reduced runnings.

4. In the tun I added 15 more Litres and held at 170 for an hour (I wasn't sure about the temperature I should use for this step as it was really just an extended sparge it stayed in for an hour while I boiled the 1st brew)
5. Final sparge of 14L and held at 170 and drained that

After all was said and done I had 6 gallons at 1075 and 6 gallons at 1032. I pulled 1 gallon from each and switched them and ended up with 6 gallons at 1070 and 6 gallons at 1038.
Both were chilled and are fermenting with 1728 Scottish Ale Yeast I'm very happy with the Wee Heavy, I'm slightly concerned about possible tannin extraction in the Scotch 70 I'll repost in a few months when they are ready to drink.

My Efficiency ended up being 82% which was great and since I planned for 80% I ended up with numbers right where I wanted them.

I really like the Parti-gyle concept especially for bigger beers for a few more pounds of grain and another hour and a half you get 5 more gallons of beer. I was planning a Barley Wine in the near future and now I'm planning to Parti-Gyle the second runnings into an APA.

Transferred the barleywine to seconday today. FG: 1.012... don't know what to make of that. Tastes a bit like jet fuel right now. Firm bitterness, no body or hint of sweetness. Hopefully it mellows and ends up balanced.