How to enjoy a sour?

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ballzac

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Okay, so I have tried a couple of flemish ales and quite enjoy them, but when it comes to lambics, the only ones I can enjoy are the girly ones like Lindeman's framboise.

I continue to try the more respected examples in an effort to train my palette, but it doesn't seem to work. I know how much people are missing out on when they turn their noses up at really good beers. A good example for me would be Aventinus Eisbock, which a lot of my friends cannot drink, but they are missing the point of this wonderful beer.

So, in an effort to avoid making the same mistake myself, I want to learn about how to enjoy a good sour beer. Examples I have tried are Cantillon Gueuze, Oud Beersel (a couple of different ones), Lindeman's Cuvee Rene Kriek, and plenty of others.

The Cantillon and the Oud Beersel I could really see potential enjoyment in. They have a wonderfully complex 'funky' aroma, similar to a good aged cheese. However, when I put it to my lips, all I taste is 'sour'. I really could not tell the difference if I was drinking straight lemon-juice (but perhaps the lemon juice would be less sour).

These beers are so well respected by the craftbrewing community. I want to know what I am missing. I really enjoy the sweet and sour balance of the flemish ales and some of the sweeter lambics, but the latter I enjoy more like a soft-drink, as they don't seem to have much complexity. I quite like the tart finish though, it leaves me wanting more. Can't get that from the gueuzes etc. though. Please help me :confused:
 
Maybe your taste buds just don't dig the sour. We're not all the same when it comes to tasting. Something to with the various taste receptors and their numbers and distribution on your tongue. Ol factory receptors follow the same rules.
 
+1. Just because they are respected doesn't mean they will agree with your palate.

Personally, I'm not crazy about beers labeled gueuze and straight lambic, but the Russian River sours (well, Beatification is a little over the top) are just right to me. Rodenbach Grand Cru is another Goldilocks beer.
 
It seems a shame if I miss out on the enjoyment that others find in these beverages, but if you guys are right then I might just have to accept it :(

The only place nearby that stocks Rodenbach is out of stock at the moment, but I want to try it. One that I found that I quite like is Liefmans Goudenband. Again, the palate is kind of sweet, but the finish is JUST tart enough to make me smack my lips and leave me wanting another sip. :)
 
Sit down with a bottle of sour ale and the BJCP guidelines. Try to pick out the flavors described for the style. Take you time and make a game out of it. I hope this helps because there are a lot of complexities and it’s more than just tart. A good example of a complex sour beer is La Folie from New Belgium if you could get it. Another Idea would be to start with the Lindeman’s Framboise and blend it with strait Lambic. Keep adding more lambic until the sweetness fades and you are drinking just lambic.
 
i've never had to train my taste buds to like something. if i don't dig it, i'll just take a pass on it. that being said, my tastes do change over time. maybe but a bottle or two and try em in six months. you never know what you'll like tomorrow. :mug:
 
i've never had to train my taste buds to like something. if i don't dig it, i'll just take a pass on it. that being said, my tastes do change over time. maybe but a bottle or two and try em in six months. you never know what you'll like tomorrow. :mug:


Well said!

Horseblanket used to repulse me
 
Sours are definitely an acquired taste. A lot of them go against what we classify in our minds as what beer is supposed to taste like. Most people don't like the first IIPA they taste either.
 
I think something that might help you is to take something on the softer side (like Bruery's Berlinner weisse or maybe Duchesse) to follow up a glass of something sweet and heavy, like an old ale, RIS or barleywine.
One of the things that I absolutely love about sour beers is how the dryness and tartness are so palate-cleansing. They pair amazingly with a wide bearth of food for this reason. Try pairing one with a thick beef stew, or a flat iron steak with potatoes.
 
I've enjoyed Flemish reds and browns. I've had regular Rodebach and enjoyed it, never had the Grand Cru, but will try it at some point. I've had a couple of really sour beers that I just didn't care for. I'm trying to track down Cantillon at the moment, but am also aware that I may try it and not like it. At the BN Winter Beer Festival, Odanata had a beer called Rosa. People were raving about it. The only thing I could think to say was, "Boy, this sure is sour!" That being said, it didn't taste bad necessarily, just more sour than I would normally enjoy.
 
Maybe your taste buds just don't dig the sour. We're not all the same when it comes to tasting. Something to with the various taste receptors and their numbers and distribution on your tongue. Ol factory receptors follow the same rules.

+1

I really can't stand most bitter flavors. The first time I tried an IPA my tongue felt like it had been sexually violated by a pine cone.
 
Have you tried anything from Jolly Pumpkin? Personally I thought Luciernaga was not very sour at all, although I very much enjoyed Cantillon's Classic Geuze so my perception of sour is different than yours. Oro de Calabaza was a step up in tartness from Luciernaga, but less so than the Cantillon, but was an excellent beer. I haven't tried a beer from JP that I didn't like.

Otherwise, do you know the vintage of the beers you're trying? They are supposed to get more sour as they get older, so trying a newer vintage may help for you. I've heard that the west coast has been getting some 2010 Cantillon lately.
 
Have you tried anything from Jolly Pumpkin?
No I haven't. Not sure if they'd be available in my area, and a quick search on my locals show up nothing.

Otherwise, do you know the vintage of the beers you're trying? They are supposed to get more sour as they get older, so trying a newer vintage may help for you. I've heard that the west coast has been getting some 2010 Cantillon lately.
I have thought about this. I guess it's just another element to play with, leaving me with plenty of sour beers out there to try. I may never like the really sour ones, but I'm going to have fun trying. :mug:
 
One of my local pubs has Consecration, Temptation, and Supplication on draft and in bottles... in fact, I think I'll take a walk. Ok, I suck. :p
 
I'm now officially on a mission to find some of these in pubs in my area. +1 for you suck, at least until find some locally myself.
 
I'm now officially on a mission to find some of these in pubs in my area. +1 for you suck, at least until find some locally myself.
 
I think I've decided that most types of sour beer I will never enjoy. I bought an Orval and a Duchesse de Bourgogne recently. The orval smelled really interesting, but I just find the sensations of drinking it to be unpleasant. The Duchesse was beautifully complex and refreshingly sour. Seems to me that the only sours I ever have (and probably ever will) enjoyed are Flemish ales and the really sweet fruit lambics.
 
I had a Hottenroth Berliner Wiesse from The Bruery last week. This is one of the finest beers it has ever been my pleasure to taste. Light and crisp, 3% ABV, subtly tart compared to other Berliners, this is an awesome summer beer.


EDIT: no need to qualify that, this is an awesome beer (period)
 
I think I've decided that most types of sour beer I will never enjoy. I bought an Orval and a Duchesse de Bourgogne recently. The orval smelled really interesting, but I just find the sensations of drinking it to be unpleasant. The Duchesse was beautifully complex and refreshingly sour. Seems to me that the only sours I ever have (and probably ever will) enjoyed are Flemish ales and the really sweet fruit lambics.

Orval's not really a sour, it's just brett.

Some day you will love Cantillon.
 
Seemed pretty sour to me, but I guess it's not a lacto kind of sour. But if that's true that it just a brett flavour, then that puts me off using brett in beer. I was thinking of doing a Brett b beer because I like that horseblanket flavour and thought it might not really be sour without lactic bacteria in it.
 
Seemed pretty sour to me, but I guess it's not a lacto kind of sour. But if that's true that it just a brett flavour, then that puts me off using brett in beer. I was thinking of doing a Brett b beer because I like that horseblanket flavour and thought it might not really be sour without lactic bacteria in it.

Brett could produce lactic acid and more so if glucose is present. With that said I don’t think Orval has much if any sourness…it has been a while since I last had it though.
 
Brett could produce lactic acid and more so if glucose is present. With that said I don’t think Orval has much if any sourness…it has been a while since I last had it though.

Brett doesnt produce lactic, it can produce acetic acid though, but that requires a bit of oxygen and no other fermentation to be occuring
 
It absolutely produces Lactic acid and Acetic in the presents of oxygen

See slide 19
http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/attachments/0000/4959/Sour_Belgian_Talk-Steve_Piatz.pdf

Ok so i did some digging, technically you are correct, but practically speaking relying on brett to produce lactic acid is wrong

brett will produce small trace amounts of lactic acid that are excreted ~1-10ppm, However, the taste threshold for lactic acid is 400ppm, so it will produce a small amount but it will be 40times less than you can taste
 
Ok so i did some digging, technically you are correct, but practically speaking relying on brett to produce lactic acid is wrong

brett will produce small trace amounts of lactic acid that are excreted ~1-10ppm, However, the taste threshold for lactic acid is 400ppm, so it will produce a small amount but it will be 40times less than you can taste

Interesting…could you provide a link? It’s not that I’m challenging your findings but would like to do some research myself. I found Steve Piatz seminar to be very interesting at NHC and would like to learn more.
 
Interesting…could you provide a link? It’s not that I’m challenging your findings but would like to do some research myself. I found Steve Piatz seminar to be very interesting at NHC and would like to learn more.

So my personal digging into literature turned up little to no discussion of lactic acid production by brett, what I found was related to the krebs cycle which is a normal metabolic pathway for bacteria and even you, however, this lead me to believe that there is no mechanism for lactic fermentation by brett, to further address this issue I contacted Chad Yakobson, who is a brewer with Odell, and who recent received a masters in brewing, his thesis was on brett fermentations this is what he had to say.....

"there is no direct texts which talk about lactic acid production. The main acids produced and transported out of the cells are acetic acid, capric acid, caproic acid and caprylic acid. The reason nothing exists on lactic acid is because it doesn't produce it in quantities that have any organoleptic impact. Most strains most likely form almost none. Acetic acid on the other hand is heavily produced in aerobic environments, and therefore has been heavily concentrated on in previous studies. How most of the studies concerning compounds with yeast occur is through observing esters and then looking at the production of the acid which made up part of that ester and looking for its origin. If Brettanomyces species produced lactic acid, it would have been written about academically already, but instead it has been shown that without exogenous additions of lactic acid, minute amounts of ethyl lactate are formed if at all.

In my study I observed ethyl lactate production in every fermentation. All the fermentations which observed pitching rate and no lactic acid addition had between .18 and 1.81 mg/l. When adding 100 mg/l between a 5 and 10 fold increase in ethyl lactate was observed. This trend continued all the way up to 3,000 mg/l which I observed too.

That data is what leads me to believe somewhere between 1 and 10 mg/l is excreted out of the cell during various metabolic processes. If you go and read up about the TCA cycle and then read about the activity of the EMP pathway in Brett and lowered amino acid synthesis during aerobic growth a spotty conclusion can be made that somewhere some is being produced through various steps and not fully consumed. But Brett does not lactic ferment, this is a whole different process, and as those pathways do not appear to exist in the genome and they have not been observed by previous researchers. Lactic acid is not produces by Brettanomyces the way a lactic ferment takes place in Lactic acid bacterias.

All this will be up on the site soon and you can read all about various pathways and secondary metabolites. But it takes time to get content up and converted for the web."
 
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