Electric All-Grain Planning Stages

So to pass the time on deployment, I've been planning my electric rig. I plan on slowly piecing it together throughout the next year, and hopefully be brewing on it before next deployment. I started off by wanting to build a Kal clone, but after I started pricing everything out, I decided to start stripping it down and simplifying everything. So here we go.
-I don't plan on changing the basic principle and layout of the HERMS as Kal has it set up. I'm going to, however, go with keggles and a Jaybird false bottom instead of the gucci Blichmann gear.
-I'm definitely gonna build my own counterflow chiller. The Chillus Convolutus is awesome, but way too expensive for this guy.
-I was thinking of changing to the camlock style of quick disconnect fittings. I'm sure it'll save me a few bucks, if only I could remember what website I found them on.

The controller is where I plan to really differ. I'll keep the PID for the hot liquor tank, but I was thinking of just deleting the one for the mash tun and using an analog thermometer like the Blichmann BrewMometer in the outlet line. I plan on using a PWM for the boil kettle, and instead of the mechanical relays for the heating elements, I was thinking about a simple DPDT switch to feed either SSR. I also plan on getting rid of the timer and alarm features of Kal's system. They are really cool, but I don't think they're strictly necessary. After pricing the control panel components out, I'm estimating about $600-650. Total cost of the project about $2K. Attached is the schematic I had in mind.

I'm in the same boat but I think my build is going to take a little longer. What about the pumps? Those march pumps cost a lot. I think I'm going to go with dual Chugger pumps when they become available they are about half the price.

I haven't really shopped around for the pumps. I can probably do a pair of the $150 March pumps, but I'm definitely not fooling around with the SS version. As long as I don't use the wrong chemicals to clean everything, I don't see it being an issue.

Eighty2Fifty1 said:

The controller is where I plan to really differ. I'll keep the PID for the hot liquor tank, but I was thinking of just deleting the one for the mash tun and using an analog thermometer like the Blichmann BrewMometer in the outlet line. I plan on using a PWM for the boil kettle, and instead of the mechanical relays for the heating elements, I was thinking about a simple DPDT switch to feed either SSR. I also plan on getting rid of the timer and alarm features of Kal's system. They are really cool, but I don't think they're strictly necessary. After pricing the control panel components out, I'm estimating about $600-650. Total cost of the project about $2K. Attached is the schematic I had in mind.

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Ideas/questions: I wonder if you could use 1 pid (w/manual mode) but have multiple temperature probes (one for HLT, MLT), and multiple relays (contactors) for HLT, BK along witch a selector switch for the input probe and one for the output destination (HLT, BK)?

chugger pumps are SS for around 140. The problem is they sell out quickly so you have to snatch them up when they got them. www.chuggerpumps.com they are supposed to have some soon. My build is probably a 2 year deal so I won't be buying this time but hopefully later in the year.

You will likely get a faint glow in your indicator lamps on the load side of the SSR's due to leakage current. Many have had problems with this when placing the lamps there.

I like to use an LED/resistor to mirror the PID and PWM DC output. It does not indicate actual power at the element but that is generally pretty obvious without a lamp.

copyright1997 said:

Ideas/questions: I wonder if you could use 1 pid (w/manual mode) but have multiple temperature probes (one for HLT, MLT), and multiple relays (contactors) for HLT, BK along witch a selector switch for the input probe and one for the output destination (HLT, BK)?

Click to expand...

I think you could do the multiple temp probes, it would depend on several things. If I used RTD's, I would need either 2 input jacks or a 3 position, 3 phase switch, as the RTD's have 3 wires. As far as wiring up multiple relays, I decided against it due to cost. Each DPDT, 30A relay was about $35, and it was $50 for the DPDT switch. I'd save about $20 with that setup.

lschiavo said:

You will likely get a faint glow in your indicator lamps on the load side of the SSR's due to leakage current. Many have had problems with this when placing the lamps there.

I like to use an LED/resistor to mirror the PID and PWM DC output. It does not indicate actual power at the element but that is generally pretty obvious without a lamp.

Click to expand...

I hadn't considered that. Will I get leakage even though the other side of the circuit is open (via the main DPDT switch)? Even if I do, would it be easy to discern whether it was current leakage or the element actually firing?

If the red line back to the source is broken either by your contactor or selector switch, you should not see any light. I have never seen this first hand but from pics I've seen, it looks like you would be able to tell if the SSR is on (much brighter).

Camlocks are found at a number of places:

bargainfittings.com and proflowdynamics.com are just a couple

Another idea I had is to set it up so I could mash one batch while boiling another. (Activate both heating elements at once) To do this, I'd need a heavier power relay into both SSR's with 30a circuit breakers and switches between. Would 50 amps be enough, assuming each element draws about 23 amps, or is that not a good enough margin? Also looks like I'd need to upgrade all wiring upstream of those CB's to 8ga (I think). Any thoughts?

I think 50A is cutting it a little close but I understand that on a budget going up to 60A is a lot more expensive. Check out ElectDirect they have good prices on 2 pole 30A contactors ($13.10 ea.). I just bought some from them.

If you go with 4500 watt elements, you can run them at the same time with 50 amps.
Current (Amps) = Power (Watt)/Voltage (V)
18.75A = 4500W/240V

18.75 X 2 = 37.5
Pumps ~2amps

Total power draw ~40 amps

milldoggy said:

If you go with 4500 watt elements, you can run them at the same time with 50 amps.
Current (Amps) = Power (Watt)/Voltage (V)
18.75A = 4500W/240V

18.75 X 2 = 37.5
Pumps ~2amps

Total power draw ~40 amps

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By Jove, that just might work!

Now if you want, you can run one 5500 and one 4500 or actually run two 5500 at the same time and be under 50 amps. You will hear arguments about the 80% rule. Some say you should follow it, some say since it is a dedicated circuit you dont have to adhere. That is up to you and if in doubt, contact a professional electrican.

I wonder if it is possible to limit the current draw of the BK to a known value. I don't think a PWM will work as it is just cycling the on/off %, and it is drawing the full load during the on part of the cycle. I did some googling (dangerous, I know) and came across "phase fired controllers". I can't quite grasp (end of a long day and I'm a software guy, not an electrical guy) whether this would work, but did find things like http://www.chromalox.com/productcatalog/Temperature+Controls++Panels++Sensors/Power+Control+Components/Power+Pac+Control+SCRs/product-details.aspx?p=367 and http://compare.ebay.com/like/230745248556?var=lv&ltyp=AllFixedPriceItemTypes&var=sbar&_lwgsi=y&cbt=y.

The idea would be to bring the BK to boil using 5500 watts, then somehow dial it back enough to utilize a 5500 watt element in the HLT.

Just use a 4500 watt and wait 5 -10 minutes longer

milldoggy said:

Now if you want, you can run one 5500 and one 4500 or actually run two 5500 at the same time and be under 50 amps. You will hear arguments about the 80% rule. Some say you should follow it, some say since it is a dedicated circuit you dont have to adhere. That is up to you and if in doubt, contact a professional electrican.

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Your post made me laugh. I am one of those that will no longer argue this issue due to all of the high riders that will not listen to NEC code rules & facts.

PJ, I am with you and I say follow NEC code. I was just trying to state that people will argue with you and say that you can run up to 50 amps on a 50 amp circuit. I always enjoy reading the banter. Again, consult a prof electrician when in doubt.

milldoggy said:

PJ, I am with you and I say follow NEC code. I was just trying to state that people will argue with you and say that you can run up to 50 amps on a 50 amp circuit. I always enjoy reading the banter. Again, consult a prof electrician when in doubt.

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Code is subject to the authority having jurisdiction's interpretation. If you're not pulling a permit, that's you.

milldoggy said:

PJ, I am with you and I say follow NEC code. I was just trying to state that people will argue with you and say that you can run up to 50 amps on a 50 amp circuit. I always enjoy reading the banter. Again, consult a prof electrician when in doubt.

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OoooK... I respect your opinion.

I do follow NEC rules and under certain NEC code rules (Depending on the code date of the original home wiring) you most certainly CAN deliver 50A on a 50A circuit. {or 30A on a 30A circuit}

The 80% rule?? What segment of that rule applies? It depends. The rule really applys to the home designer and builder - not the home owner. It also depends on many factors in the NEC for the year of the build and the NEC code at THAT time.

P-J said:

OoooK... I respect your opinion.

I do follow NEC rules and under certain NEC code rules (Depending on the code date of the original home wiring) you most certainly CAN deliver 50A on a 50A circuit. {or 30A on a 30A circuit}

The 80% rule?? What segment of that rule applies? It depends. The rule really applys to the home designer and builder - not the home owner. It also depends on many factors in the NEC for the year of the build and the NEC code at THAT time.

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I totally agree. The 80% or more correctly the 125% rule has its applications. It's not applied to everything. There are exceptions to every rule especially in electrical code.

lschiavo said:

I totally agree. The 80% or more correctly the 125% rule has its applications. It's not applied to everything. There are exceptions to every rule especially in electrical code.

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Thank you. I'm just lovin' this..

I'm thinking I'd go with a 4500w in the HLT and a 5500w in the BK, giving me a total draw of 41.65A. That's 83% of 50A (Or 120%). Not quite the 80/125%. If that's a hard-and-fast rule, I'll use dual 4500w elements or see if I can source bigger components from work. A lot of the relays used on our planes have well over 100A capacity.

http://www.mercuryrelays.com/merc60amp.htm Something along these lines?