Mr. Malty question w older yeast

So, I want to brew a Rye IPA, OG of around 1.065 and I want to use Pacman yeast. I have 2 Smackpacks with a manufacture date of July 2011. Mr. Malty is telling that with a stir plate I need to use 8 smack packs to achieve my goal of 236 billion cells, and even if I slide the bar to make bigger starters, I can only get down to 4 packs. Is this a realistic calculation, I mean I know he knows what he is talking about, but the yeast has been stored extremely well this whole time. I see people talking about using washed yeast that they harvested a year ago with no issues. I am not sure what to do... I want to brew Sunday. I guess I could use dry yeast, my LHBS is out of everything else.

Could I just make a starter of about 1 liter of the Pacman and then continually grow it up to what I need? Actually, I would like to grow it up over what i need for this brew and save some for the future.

Any ideas and advice welcome!

Do you only have a 1 liter flask? That is probably the limiting factor.

I would do something like make a 500 ml starter, then refrigerate, decant, and pitch that into a 1 liter starter. That will give you a good quantity of 100% viable yeast that should be more than enough for a 1.065 beer.

No, I have a 2 liter flask, should have mentioned that. So you think if I just make a 2 liter starter that would be enough?

2 liters is certainly better than 1 liter, but with yeast that old, it is still definitely better to step it up if you can.

Yeah, I am just not sure how exactly to figure out the step up stages, and the above posted link is a little confusing, not sure where the calculations come from.

Look at the last reply on that seanterrill.com thread. The guy posted his site YeastCalc Yeast Calculator which makes the step up calculations for you. Couldn't be easier !

ChadChaney said:

Yeah, I am just not sure how exactly to figure out the step up stages, and the above posted link is a little confusing, not sure where the calculations come from.

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Basically you change the gravity and volume to an amount that it allows you to use two packs (and take note of the number of cells), that's your first step.

So say in your example 1.030/5.25gal batch on stir plate requires 2 packs and 1.54L starter and provides 112 billion cells.

Then you plug 112% into the Viability Rate (there's ~100 billion cells in a new pack), and your normal 1.065/5.25 gal batch, and it says you need a 1L starter for the second step.

I have always read that step ups should be around 10x for maximum yeast growth. With really old yeast I usually start with a 200ml starter then step that up to 2 liters. Really that yeast is not that old. I don't get to brew as often as I like sometimes so sometimes I end up using yeast that is way older then that. A step up from a smaller starter should get you in the ball park I would think.

Thanks for all the help, here is what I decided to go with; made a 2 liter starter, going to ferment that out and make another 2 liter starter.. Needed to get this thing rolling so I can brew Sunday, I might not even make the step up depending on how long this one takes. I need to brew this batch for a function I just found out about. Next time I will know how to do with the older yeast!

How did it go making a 2L starter in a 2L flask? Thinking about trying that soon with some Fermcap.

That might not be enough time for the yeast to really take off in the starter but I wish you luck and hope all goes well. And 2 liters in a 2 liter flask can get a little tight especially when boiling the starter but yes fermcap does help quite a bit.

I do not boil in my flask, it sits kind of funny on my stove burner and I have 2 kids ( 2 and 3.75) who are really curious and I am afraid they will jostle the stove to get a look and it will crash. I make the starter wort in a stainless stock pot and the transfer to flask. Learned that lesson the hard way, lost a 1 liter flask while trying to save it from a boilover, not fun to clean up.

As for the timing of the step up and the starter, I always forget the starter never just starts fermenting ASAP, so yeah I am a day behind, but I really need to brew Sunday. So, my new plan is this, the 2ltr. starter and some additional dry yeast maybe? I have some 04, 05, and Notty.

I work in a Wine and Spirits dept. and we handle all the homebrew supplies and we are doing a demo/info thing on the 4th of Feb. so I need to have something in the works to take and show. Maybe how to rack over, etc. I have kind of wanted to play with yeast blending, just not this way, lol...

DSmith said:

How did it go making a 2L starter in a 2L flask? Thinking about trying that soon with some Fermcap.

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I've done it. It works, but you really have to watch the boil. I keep it on basically the lowest heat setting on the stove and it still maintains a boil, and even then there might be a couple occasions where I pull the flask off the heat for a few seconds to let it settle down a bit.

Regarding the 2L starter in the 2L flask, a gallon glass jug is less than $5 at my LHBS. I marked the flask up for 2L and it's really high and high OG beers will exceed the 2L limit for that flask. A stirbar should still work with a curved bottom jug but it'll clang around.