help starting.

alright if someone could just verify this is enough or tell me what else i need.
i'm planning on buying this

http://www.midwestsupplies.com/products/ProdByID.aspx?ProdID=6876

a recipe
and 48 bottle with caps. what else do i need??

Maybe three cases of empties (72 bottles). I usually get about two cases and eight to ten bottles per batch.

Don't forget a pot big enough to boil at 2-3 gallons of liquid.

That looks like a pretty comprehensive fermenting kit to me. Whether you think that 5 gallons is 19 L or 23 L (US or Imp or whatever) you will get a full load of beer into 48 pint size bottles (500ml). I'm not sure what their "Better Bottles" are, or if they are that size. They seem not to be glass, but in that case, I'm not sure why you need a capper...

I am going to be all over the board on this one. If you don't have a pot you will have to invest in one. Go ahead and spend the money on one with a thick bottom. When I brewed extract years ago, I used a cheap 12qt pot that scorched every time. I recently helped a friend with an extract brew and he had a nice pot with the heavy bottom and it never scorched. You live and learn. I found a nice 22qt stainless pot at wally world for $45 that I am going to turn into a mash tun.

As far as the actual kit, it looks to be a good starting point. The downside in my experience is that they include items you will use only use a couple times, if at all. Then there are items you will want to upgrade right away. If you had someone to brew with you could see what would really be needed. I have helped a couple people this way so they could buy the individual pieces that they really needed, avoiding the extra junk. But I am the type person that would just buy the kit inorder to get started and worry about the rest later.

for a beginner, I think that kit is great. in fact, it's almost identical MY set-up, and I've been doing this for several years. this kit will serve you well for a long time if you take care of it properly.

but, you WILL need that big brewpot like the others mentioned. Probablyh a bottling wand (a little spring valve that lets you fill bottles with MUCH less spillage than most othe rmethods.)

-walker

It comes with the bottling wand.

I agree with the above....all you'll need is a pot! If you can, get something 7gal or more so you can do full boils right off the bat. If you can't, don't worry too much about it.

Also, I don't see a spoon mentioned. Get one of the long handled ones....they're cheap. The plastic ones are just dandy.

for a beginner, smaller boils are probably better. if you jump right in with full volume 5 0r 6 gallon boils, you then put youself ina position for needing a wort chiller or loads of ice for a water bath.

i still only boil 3 gallons, cooled with 3 gallons of ice cold water. (I just have to remember to put that water in the frezer several house before brewing begins.)

-walker

Sasquatch said:

... I'm not sure what their "Better Bottles" are...

Click to expand...

These are a plastic PET carboy. The company has been running ads in BYO every issue. I've never used or even seen one close up. Here's the link from the MWS site and from the manufacturer.

I bought a Brewer's Best (I think) kit when I started. It had a plastic bucket with a drilled lid and a grommet (for the primary), a bottling bucket with a spigot, a brush, a bottling wand, a racking cane, 3 feet of tubing, a stick on thermometer, a hygrometer, an econo-lock and a capper and it was about $50.

I then bought the 22 qt Wally World pot and have had great luck with it. No boil-overs, easy to clean, even-heat.

Then there was the secondary I bought, the replacement racking cane, the $20 worth of various screens and filters and all the other fun stuff.

Hope you didn't think you'd be saving money by homebrewing!

Cheesefood said:

Hope you didn't think you'd be saving money by homebrewing!

Click to expand...

Well.. that's not entirely fair. After the initial investment to aquire the reusable EQUIPMENT, you then only have to worry about ingredients, and you can pump out good quality beer for much less than $1.00/pint.

-walker

Walker said:

Well.. that's not entirely fair. After the initial investment to aquire the reusable EQUIPMENT, you then only have to worry about ingredients, and you can pump out good quality beer for much less than $1.00/pint.

-walker

Click to expand...

What do you figure eq. costs? Say you spend about $200 to get a decent set-up. Heck, we'll even figure that bottles are included, but then we'll also say that we're not kegging and probably not doing AG yet.

Figuring that the average brew takes 6 weeks, let's say that this set up can yield about 9 batches in a year, and let's say we get 40 bottles. That puts the cost at $0.55 just for equipment.

Now, the average ingredient list is about $30 for extract, right? That's $270 for ingredients, or $0.74 per bottle. Add to that the $0.55 and you're at $1.29 per bottle.

That's about $15.49 per 12 pack for the first year of brewing. Now, I don't know about you, but I can get quality beer for less than that, and I don't have to worry about bad batches. I know that Blue Moon will be tasty 99.99% of the time I buy it for $11.00 per 12.

It really doesn't end up being cheaper, especially once you start upgrading: kegging, All Grain equipt, another fridge, tappers, replacement parts, DUI, etc.

It's just fun.

I consider bottles and equipment TOTALLY separate, as they can be reused over and over and over and over and over and over.

Do you count the cost of your stove and drinking glasses into your beer price, too? What about the house that you brew it in? I don't count these things because I am not going to DRINK them and make them vanish.

So, just the ingredients are what I'm talking about. I do extract w/ specialty grains, and my cost rings in at about $30 for a 5 gallon batch. That's $0.53 for a 12 oz bottle of fine brew.

-walker

Walker said:

I consider bottles and equipment TOTALLY separate, as they can be reused over and over and over and over and over and over.

Click to expand...

I asked SWMBO whether or not the cost of equipment should be considered...she looked at me in that way that causes shrinkage, and said "Why". I slunk back to my den with my tail between my legs before she asked me one more time "How much money have you saved so far?"

Have to agree with Cheesefood on this one...two or three years down the road you might be doing all right, but in the beginning you are NOT saving money.

Ok, I'll give that to you.

But, I'm still using the same equipment now that I was 5 years ago (except for the occasional broken hydrometer or other small item), so it has all worked out for me.

-walker

by the way, what does "SWMBO" stand for?

She Who Must Be Obeyed...I think Sam coined that one.

El Pistolero said:

Have to agree with Cheesefood on this one...two or three years down the road you might be doing all right, but in the beginning you are NOT saving money.

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If that big old C I got in Accounting taught me anything, it's that you have to depreciate equipment when determining your cash flow statements. You can possible stretch out the depreciation over 2 years, but honestly, there's little chance that $200 in equipment won't be replaced beforehand. Since most pieces break pretty easily at that price range, you're more likely to be upgrading and therefore have to create an account that factors in the amount of depreciation into a Repair/Replace account.

Also factor in that your bottles won't last two years. They'll break, get tossed or disappear when your greedy, vampiric "friends" ask for take-homes.

I've asked around. You don't save money. Quite the opposite. Big places can always do it cheaper because they can buy in bulk and they move volume.

factor in that most of my bottles actually COME from my friends (they save their empties and give them to me.)

I'm not saying that it's cheap to homebrew, but for me it is definately cheapER than buying the beers that I like to drink, hands down.

-walker

edited to add in: I drink sammy smiths @ $3.20/bottle, bass @$2.20 for a big bottle or @ $7.ish/6-pack, and newcastles/saranac at about $6.00/6-pack.

as for broken equipment, in the last 5 years I have broken 2 hydrometers and 3 bottles. I have replaced my hoses three times. that's hardly anything in equipment costs, and I see no need to upgrade anything.

Ok, I'm light on work today, so I just did some math.

I drink about 2 bottles of beer every day. Sometimes more, sometimes less, but 24 oz/day is a good, realistic average.

Let's be slightly OPTIMISTIC about the price of my favorite store bought beers and say that my beer cost $1 for 12 oz (this is the price of my cheapest commercial beers.)

So... in two years, I will drink; 365 days/year * 2 bottles/day * 2 years * $1/bottle = $1460 every two years if I buy it all.

Remember that; $1460 to buy beer for two years.

Now.. back to homebrewing.....

I have between $150 and $200 in equipment. Let's be pessimistic and say that I have $200 worth of gear.

Let's be UBER pessimistic and say that I am going to replace ALL of that gear every 2 years. This is ludicrous, though, because my carboys (the most expensive things I own) are going to last a very VERY long time, but just for the sake of argument... let's say I break them every two years and they need replaced.

I need to homebrew enough to feed my 24 oz/day habbit for two years. That's 17,520 oz of beer over two years... OR.... about 28 batches of beer.

At an average of $30 for a batch worth of ingredients, I can make this beer at home for; 28 batches * $30/batch = $840. Add in the equipment costs, and it comes to $1040 for two years.

So.. I can buy it for $1460 or make it for $1040. That's a savings of just over $400. Hell.. I can replace my equipment every 8 months instead of every 24 months and still break even.

Are you still telling me that I am going to spend MORE money home-brewing?

-walker

Well, my last batch of ingredients was closer to $60 than $30, but even then it's still the same ballpark, so I'll give you that. I think the real answer is that someone who is frugal can save some money by brewing their own, but those of us who are "less frugal" are fooling our wifes when we say we're saving money.

wow.. $60 for a batch of beer. Can I see the recipe?

anyway, I'm not trying to start an argument or anything. It does seem very expensive at first when you are buying your gear and getting things rolling, but over time and with proper care of your equipment you can definately save considerable amounts of money.

Regardless, I (like most of you) didn't start brewing for economic reasons. The money savings were just an added bonus that came with the REAL goal; good F%$@king beer.

I used to drink 'medium' quality beer up until 1997. Then I lived in Germany for 5 months and was enlightened. When I came back to the USA, I decided that medium quality beer wasn't good enough and I started homebrewing. I haven't looked back since then.

I only recently realized the money savings I was actually seeing, because I moved across the country and had to shut the home brewery down. At this point, the home brewery is ALMOST ready to start producing things I can drink again, but not quite yet....

Durig the time the brewery was shut down, I had to buy beer from the store. After my 5th trip to the grocery to buy a 6-er, I realized how friggin expensive it was to buy the stuff.

The only thing that made me feel better about buying it was knowing that I was going to get to keep the bottles.

-walker

Walker said:

Ok, I'm light on work today, so I just did some math.

I drink about 2 bottles of beer every day. Sometimes more, sometimes less, but 24 oz/day is a good, realistic average.

Let's be slightly OPTIMISTIC about the price of my favorite store bought beers and say that my beer cost $1 for 12 oz (this is the price of my cheapest commercial beers.)

So... in two years, I will drink; 365 days/year * 2 bottles/day * 2 years * $1/bottle = $1460 every two years if I buy it all.

Remember that; $1460 to buy beer for two years.

Now.. back to homebrewing.....

I have between $150 and $200 in equipment. Let's be pessimistic and say that I have $200 worth of gear.

Let's be UBER pessimistic and say that I am going to replace ALL of that gear every 2 years. This is ludicrous, though, because my carboys (the most expensive things I own) are going to last a very VERY long time, but just for the sake of argument... let's say I break them every two years and they need replaced.

I need to homebrew enough to feed my 24 oz/day habbit for two years. That's 17,520 oz of beer over two years... OR.... about 28 batches of beer.

At an average of $30 for a batch worth of ingredients, I can make this beer at home for; 28 batches * $30/batch = $840. Add in the equipment costs, and it comes to $1040 for two years.

So.. I can buy it for $1460 or make it for $1040. That's a savings of just over $400. Hell.. I can replace my equipment every 8 months instead of every 24 months and still break even.

Are you still telling me that I am going to spend MORE money home-brewing?

-walker

Click to expand...

Did you happen to find that equipment that cleans itself? I've been looking for it. How much did you pay for it? My scrubbing arm earns about $15 per batch. Then there's the mess on the stove, on the counter-top, on the floor...

Your time is worth more than $200 per year.

And then, let me ask: 1. Do you honestly drink 2 beers a day, 365 per year? I'm not going to tell you how to walk, but you might need to learn 13 new steps. 2 Do you have friends? Mine always want to drink my home-made beer. You can invite your friends over and tell them it's BYOB, but as soon as they see you drinking from an unlabeled bottle, they're going to offer you all sorts of Old Style as a trade for your homebrew.

The bulk of that $60 was three 3# bags of wheat DME at $15 per. I've since learned I got hosed on the DME...can get the same thing mail order for less than $11 per bag, after shipping. That and I only used 7 of the 9#'s, so I should have figured that in. I can see eventually getting the ingredients down to around $30 per batch. But $200 for equipment...I guess I better go back over my receipts...it seems like I've spent at least $300 so far, and I'm barely getting started.

Cheesefood said:

And then, let me ask: 1. Do you honestly drink 2 beers a day, 365 per year? I'm not going to tell you how to walk, but you might need to learn 13 new steps.

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Are you being serious?

Yes, I drink 2 beers a day. I have one with dinner at about 6pm. I then sometimes have another later in the evening (like 10pm.)

Sometimes I do NOT have the second one. But I might make up for it on the weekend when I'm playing cards by having (shock and gasp) 3 or 4 beers during the poker game!

You are entitled to your opininion, but if you think 2 beers a day makes me an alcoholic, you have some strange views on that disease.

-walker

edited to add: this is my last post on the thread. I was trying to offer the position that homebrewing can be cheaper than buying beer, but I seem to have ticked off Cheesefood somehow in the process.

Walker said:

You are entitled to your opininion, but if you think 2 beers a day makes me an alcoholic, you have some strange views on that disease.

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I think true alcoholics go to meetings.

I guess I'm really screwed if I drink 3-4 beers a night, huh?

I have about the same average. About 2 bottles a day. 365. Then again I'm an Irish / Polish hybrid

I know I said my previous post was my last, but I had to crack a few jokes.

Eskram said:

I guess I'm really screwed if I drink 3-4 beers a night, huh?

Click to expand...

Oh yeah.. You're doomed. Might as well call AA now and look for a sponor.

LupusUmbrus said:

About 2 bottles a day. 365. Then again I'm an Irish / Polish hybrid

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Hell, with that pedigree, you're an alcoholic even if you don't drink.

I'll be your sponsor Eskram...but you have to bring the beer.

Great!

Think a case will last a few hrs, or should I bring more?
How long are those meetings anyway? I don't want them cutting into my drinking time.

El Pistolero said:

She Who Must Be Obeyed...I think Sam coined that one.

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No, I didn't coin that. It's commonly used on another forum. I'm not very witty.

Oh, and as for economy, it'll be a good long while before my equipment pays for itself. I gave up on the "brewing for economy" thing quite a while back. But if you're able to make it work, that's great.

Eskram said:

Great!

Think a case will last a few hrs, or should I bring more?
How long are those meetings anyway? I don't want them cutting into my drinking time.

Click to expand...

How 'bout I come along and help you with a keg? I'll even help carry it

I have yet to brew my first beer, (next week) but I do have three batches of wine going right now.
I definately got into this hobby to save money. So far my equipment outlay has been less than $20. Three airlocks, some stoppers, a floating therometer and a tube for my hydrometer.
I already had a bunch of 5 gal pails & lids. I was given a winemaking kit (pail, carboy, tubing, racking cane, bottle filler, corks, corker, hydrometer, etc.) by a co-worker. She had bought it 2 or 3 years ago, then remembered that she dosen't even like wine.
I "rescued" about 100 wine bottles and 20 beer bottles from the glass recycler.
Right now, I'm working on some soft copper to make an immersion chiller.
I guess that I'm...uh... creative. Well... maybe just cheap.

The cheapest store bought beer I could tolerate was yuengling.. I know I'll probably get ridiculed for not drinking guiness or anchor etc. but I'm a poor grad student. Yes, money is an issue and so is good beer. With some labor I can make beer that's far better than yuengling (though I don't make lagers) and is on par (according to my palette) with some better beers $7 or $8 a sixer. I drink one a night generally but sometimes two or three or four for football games or parties.. and two is certainly normal on those nights where I've got grading to do (what a *****). I don't think that makes me an alcoholic. I don't drink in the morning or afternoon and I don't binge.. to me those habits are hallmarks of alcholism. But hey, to each his own.. let's just enjoy the hobby and leave it at that.

As for the cost, I can't believe all grain hasn't been mentioned. Batches are maybe $15 a pop at most (a fair amount of specialty malts, high gravity, and decent hop bill). Yeah it takes a lot of time but I generally enjoy it.. it's a hobby (only the lucky get paid for hobbies). I have a have a very minimalist setup but hey it is all grain at least and my equipment costs maybe $200 total. I don't see what I'll be breaking either.. the pot is metal, the bucket plastic, and I seriously doubt I'll break the carboys. Everything else is cheap (autosiphon, hydrometer, thermometer, etc.). I think the real costs associated with the hobby come from upgrading.. there's always something more to buy that you don't really *need* to make good beer (like a kegging setup or a lagering fridge etc.).

My $.02

edit: as for others drinking it, I have only a few friends that actually enjoy beer and want to drink my homebrew and they KNOW to keep my bottles and rinse them after use. Everyone else likes that clydesdale piss...

Hmmm, I think I've missed the boat on this thread, but anyway...


DON'T USE PLASTIC BOTTLES!
My LHBS said they did an experiment with bottling a brown ale in both glass an PET bottles. After a few months the stuff in glass was great, and the stuff in PET was almost undrinkable.

It's second-hand info, but I trust them; they're knowledgeable and helpful...

Compared to my other hobbies (Radio controled helicopters, bicycling, astronomy and golf) home brewing is a money making venture.