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Home Brew Forums > Wine, Mead, Cider, Sake & Soda > Soda Making > Soda siphon without disposable cartridges
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Old 08-03-2012, 05:39 AM   #11
MagicMike
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Edited:

Pretty neat, the connection that goes to the paintball tank, would it fit a 5lb tank? If so, would I have to pass it through my regulator? Also, if I were to use the mini cartridge on the other side of the cable and hook it up to the siphon, will I just fill it like I always do like a PET bottle until the gas fades away? What PSI do the mini cartridges hold? (which is why I asked if I needed to use a regulator).

Thanks in advanced... If this works out I might be buying it.

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Old 08-03-2012, 07:30 AM   #12
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I was looking bulk fill adapters too, though I was in an area with a poor connection and trying to do it through my phone as well as leave the previous message (bad idea).

A problem is that airguns, from what I understand and I'm likely wrong since I don't own one, or have looked into them, is that unlike soda charging, the co2 is released in small bursts to propel the round. This means that a single 12g co2 cartridge can propel several rounds either by using the co2 cartridge to fill an internal reservoir or dispenses directly from the cartridge. A brief lookup says that a single 12g cartridge can power anywhere from 40-100 shots
A co2 cartridge of any size is about 900psi at standard temperature. However, this is 900psi in a small device. Pressure to volume equations will say that the larger container of a bottle (seltzer bottle) has a lower pressure when charged by a single cartridge.
An airsoft gun appears to have an internal valve that dispenses the air in brief amounts from a cartridge directly to fire a round. Neither a seltzer bottle, nor a soda bottle has this restriction. You might be able to use a soda stream since it does have a valve that dispenses small amounts without a regulator. Otherwise, you will have 900psi going directly into the seltzer bottle.

If you were to fill a seltzer bottle from a large tank, you would need a regulator, or a way to limit how much co2 you're sending in. The bulk fill adapter does not have this. (Again, the airsoft gun has a valve that limits this). The bulk fill adapters don't have a regulator and I'm not sure what it would take to modify one (other than about $100 for a regulator)

Also, the bulk fill adapters are made to fit onto a paintball tank thread. You would need to purchase an adapter to fit a larger tank. This would be the reverse of the adapter that allows a normal co2 regulator (made for larger tanks) to fit onto a paintball tank.


A question though, why use a 5 pound tank on a seltzer bottle? At that point, skip the seltzer bottle and get the carbonator cap. You can even use a 20oz paintball co2 tank this way, though you'd still need a regulator and connection. The minor amount of co2 lost when opening a bottle to pour vs buying extra equipment would probably need to undergo a cost breakdown analysis.


The best option for a replacement cartridge would be a refillable one. Even at the best though, you'd have to have a fill capsule that's rated for 900-1800 psi and a way to seal the cartridge for use. And you're going to lose co2 to the space that the cartridge fits inside unless you have a direct valve in the thing.

For some reason, I thought I heard complaints about the co2doctor thing in this forum. I could be mistaken though. However, I have seen pictures of people modifying a sodastream to take a line. Plus, if you don't have any thing and are researching, it's cheaper to spend the money on a larger co2 tank and keg and stick it in a fridge.

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Old 08-03-2012, 03:48 PM   #13
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Quote:
If you were to fill a seltzer bottle from a large tank, you would need a regulator, or a way to limit how much co2 you're sending in. The bulk fill adapter does not have this. (Again, the airsoft gun has a valve that limits this). The bulk fill adapters don't have a regulator and I'm not sure what it would take to modify one (other than about $100 for a regulator)
Let's assume I already cater to a 5Lb tank and use a carbonation cap for my PET bottle, if I wanted to fill a seltzer bottle wouldn't I already have the regulator from my tank to fill the seltzer bottle? And question, you mentioned the cartridge might disperse increments of co2 or on a paintball gun, does the mini cartridge dispense the same method for seltzer or does it completely empty it in the first shot?

And yes I know it might be a waste but I could always try it out for a bit and give it to family member as a present. It's a nice sodastream replacement for the party goer!

P.S. Any idea what this adapter for the paintball thread to regulator thread is called? Or perhaps a link? thanks
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Old 08-03-2012, 10:39 PM   #14
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Was trying to do that yesterday but the computer I was at has a broken key and I use my paste function to type 'm'. Makes it difficult to copy/paste. Plus, it appears that the store has different variations on the paintball regulator or adapter which I didn't know till just now. http://www.homebrewing.org/search.asp?keyword=paintball

If you're looking at the bulk fill adapter, that's made to fit onto a paintball tank. Not a 5 gallon tank. What you would wind up having to do is cut the air line on the bulk fill adapter, and attach it to your larger regulator (meaning you would lose the connection to your ball/pin lock).

It appears that the valve that allows incremental releases of co2 to fire rounds is built into the airsoft/paintball gun/marker, not a function of the cartridge. Once you pierce the cartridge all the co2 is released (which is what happens in a seltzer bottle, or when launching a co2 model car)

Without going through full prices, you would wind up needing: paintball tank (20-30 bucks), paintball tank regulator (90 bucks), or normal regulator and adapter to fit a paintball tank, and a bulk fill adapter. (how much was that one? 50?). Unless there was a reason to use a seltzer bottle a whole heck of a lot, I think I'll stick with cartridges. Now if I were a resturant that served via seltzer bottles in order to be fancy, I'd reconsider. This would be the sort of place where $50 per plate is the norm anyways and you're expecting some sort of perrier style water.

Also... it appears that there's another problem...

The Drozd uses a standard 12gram charger, which seems to be a general standard for airsoft guns and paintball markers. A selzter bottle generally takes a 8 gram charger. So you'll have to also figure a way around that size difference, unless you have one that takes a 12 gram.

I actually have 2-3 (I swear I had a 3rd somewhere around here) carbonation caps, so I have at least 2 bottles of carbonated water ready and several closed cold bottles. I'd drag those instead. If I were having a cocktail party where carbonated water is used in the drinks and we were using expensive alcohol, I'd probably use the seltzer bottle to be fancy with chargers. If we're already spending money on alcohols, the minor dollar per small water is nothing and it'd barely be used except for something like an old-fashioned. If we're doing a every day/weekend drinking party, I just charge the bottles, recap, and drag the bottles in (in case they get tossed.)

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Old 08-04-2012, 01:42 AM   #15
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Thanks for the informative reply, now onto the rebound questions. As for your 8 gram vs 12 gram scenario, while that might be true doesn't that mean that the cartridge might be longer in size and the tip of the cartridge is still the same? So that it can fit into the seltzer bottle? If no, then maybe the same bulk fill adapter but for 8 gram chargers?

Secondly, by having the regulator installed and having the proper fitting adapter for the paintball-> 5lb tank, how much PSI would the regulator need to be set for in order to inject the seltzer bottle? I would assume the mini cartridge would just act as middle man and you would just fill the seltzer with the same psi as you would with a PET bottle?

Thirdly, just to confirm on what I would be needing after the fact that I already own a 5lb tank with the hose,regulator. I would just need a new hose, and the adapter from the 5lb tank to a an adapter that would fit a paintball tank?? I should be able to eliminate the paintball tank, paintball regulator since i already have then in bigger size?

ok thanks

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Old 08-04-2012, 02:28 AM   #16
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Good questions. I'm not too sure about the size differences in he 8g vs 12g. I've never needed.a.12g. If its just longer... maybe. Normally the.chargers are screwed in so it could work that way if thats the case.

I would hazard a guess at the 30 or so psi. Not sure.

And again, I don't know. Its more of a guess on what would need.to be done or potentially done in rregards to parts and connections.

Sorry for the spelling and punctuation, via phone. Ill reply more later.

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Old 08-04-2012, 05:07 AM   #17
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Sounds good, and I really appreciate your replies they are very helpful. I only stumbled upon abit of a pause when you said you were looking for your third carbonater, as I wasn't sure what you mean by having them on hand? I plan on using 1 carbonater and just replace it with the regular cap of the PET bottle after filling (since there wont be a need to refill the same PET bottle unless it gets flat), but by then I would just open a new bottle that was pressurized from my collection.

Does that make sense? lol just wanted clarification on the multiple carbonater caps as I don't see the point in using more then one, heck I wouldnt even wanna leave it screwed on the bottle knowing how gragile and delicate it is to have one of those. Thanks Kevin.

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Old 08-04-2012, 08:06 AM   #18
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Okay, to reiterate:
1) It's questionable about the cartridge. After looking it up, it does appear that a 12g cartridge is wider in diameter than an 8g cartridge. (3/4 vs 11/16)Whether or not the recepticle allows for this tolerance is also in question. I'd consider finding someone who might have an empty 12g and see how well it fits first.

2) Regulator Pressure: I'd consider 30 psi. I don't know what the real resulting psi is after a 8g cartridge is dispersed into the container, but I expect it's about that amount when compared to sensory comparisons to bottled carbonated water. I couldn't find a definite answer though on what a generic seltzer can take.

3) I don't know. I expect that instead of the hose currently used on the regulator, you'd use either a) the smaller hose that goes to the bulk fill cartridge replacement, or b) screw the paintball connector end of the bulk fill line into a thread (probably an adapter) that sits on the regulator. Ideally, it'd be b, then you just have to swap back and forth, rather than cut apart the hose.

I used to use one carbonator cap, recapping the bottle with a plain cap, but I got annoyed at the initial co2 release which caused enough of a co2 release to be annoyingly noticeable (barely), so I just started keeping the cap on, and using a second one to pressurize while the first one was being emptied. I swear I have a third carbonator cap somewhere. It was mostly at a time where I would visit the family and go through several 2-L bottles at once that I found it to be easier to spend the money for multiple caps. (Too bulky to drag a whole keg, or mini keg around). I've found that the carbonator caps are pretty durable. I'm not running it over with a car, or trying to crush it in heavy machinery, but I've dropped it a few times on its own without issue. (Haven't dropped a full bottle and had it land on the cap though).

Also, I partially got the second one and third one so I could carbonate small amounts of beers (which would create a bunch of froth when opened due to nucleation points in the liquid, resulting in the inability to switch caps unless the beer sat for a while. Don't quite know why else it didn't work, even when it was chilled close but not quite freezing).

It helped that the beer store I could buy the caps from was very close, so I was able to start at one and consider the effects of having more than one.

And I also have the isi soda siphon that I only use occasionally, and two isi whippers that I use N2O on. The whippers don't matter, but full disclosure helps if I try talking about them.

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Old 08-04-2012, 02:27 PM   #19
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Ok wonderful, I will be attending a few shops here in the Oshawa/Whitby area to see if I can find a comparison.

Also, is it normal for people to use a keg to store just carbonated water? And if yes, does the process of releasing the co2 only upon serving water to the glass act as the same process as a seltzer? Thanks


P.S.
Found a site that converts 8gram to 12gram, its just a cover so I am assuming the thread is the same? Here is the link
http://www.thebeeressentials.com/keg...ylinders.shtml
its the 4th item, on the right, 2nd line. Thanks

I also came across this other website, this is supposedly a 12g cartridge soda. I wonder how you would use these?

http://www.mrfizz.com/store/page4.html

422212-beer.jpg  
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Old 08-04-2012, 02:52 PM   #20
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Looks like I did some more research and the point tip are indeed different sizes.

8g = 8.6mm, 12g = 7.5mm.

Back to Sq. 1

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