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Old 08-02-2011, 10:17 PM   #1
dougugly
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Default Kegging then counter pressure glass bottle filling?

I made my first root beer with my kids and want to send some bottles to Grandpa. I am force carbing in a keg at 40psi for about a week then going back to 30 psi for serving.

Can I counter pressure fill glass bottles with the soda at 30 psi. We want to share with my dad but don't want to to give him anything dangerous.



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Old 08-02-2011, 11:30 PM   #2
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I use PET bottles, they can take alot of pressure 60-70 psi
if worried use metal bud bottles



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Old 08-03-2011, 01:41 AM   #3
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Somewhere back there was a discussion on this. My angle is that beer bottles aren't rated for the pressures of soda and it's better off not doing it. You could use some soda bottles however.

It has to do with burst tests and strength ratings and whatever else I was able to dredge up from an unused packaging degree, and some articles about tensile strength, compression strength, and failure rates. Beer bottles are usually rated for 3-3.5 volumes of co2, soda bottles are higher.

An example of 3 volumes of co2 is a beer/soda at 13psi at 32 degrees. 30 psi at 32 degrees is 4.77 volumes of pressure. (http://www.kegerators.com/carbonation-table.php)

I'd use the 2 liter bottle or bring the keg.

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Old 08-03-2011, 02:09 AM   #4
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the old glass coke bottles were heavy and thick for a reason...

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Old 08-03-2011, 02:33 AM   #5
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Thank you for all the good suggestions! I think I will use 2 liter bottles for transport.

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Old 08-03-2011, 05:21 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinM View Post
Somewhere back there was a discussion on this. My angle is that beer bottles aren't rated for the pressures of soda and it's better off not doing it. You could use some soda bottles however.

It has to do with burst tests and strength ratings and whatever else I was able to dredge up from an unused packaging degree, and some articles about tensile strength, compression strength, and failure rates. Beer bottles are usually rated for 3-3.5 volumes of co2, soda bottles are higher.

An example of 3 volumes of co2 is a beer/soda at 13psi at 32 degrees. 30 psi at 32 degrees is 4.77 volumes of pressure. (http://www.kegerators.com/carbonation-table.php)

I'd use the 2 liter bottle or bring the keg.
I think you'd be just fine.
Even if your kegged beverage is at 30 psi at 32F holding 4.77 volumes of CO2 (volumes is not a measure of pressure, even though they are related), it's easy to underestimate how much CO2 is lost when you remove the bottle from the bottle filler (headspace returns to 0 psig) and take it to the capper. Once it's capped, the beverage loses CO2 to pressurize the headspace until it's back at equilibrium.

If your bottle will hold the pressure it's filled at (ie. once you've pressurized it at your filler), then it's unlikely to fail later unless it's heated.

But if you're still worried about it, use a PET bottle.
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Old 08-03-2011, 06:55 PM   #7
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I considered the dispersion effect, but was also concerned about just how much is lost from the solution and the effect of pressure increase if the liquid warmed. Since I've never looked into it, I didn't bring it up. I say bring the keg and a couple gallons of vanilla ice cream.

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Old 08-04-2011, 12:03 AM   #8
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This thread is asking the exact question I had, which is using a counter pressure filler and glass bottles for soda. But now comes by keg noob questions!

My kegs and kegging supplies show up tomorrow, and I planned on getting something into them this weekend, but I do not have a kegerator or empty fridge space for them. So how bad is it to force carb and/or bottle from a keg after carb'd at room temp? I figure I'll get foam issues, but really don't know much at all about keg systems but am scared to carb with yeast. Whether its soda/cider/beer.

I only have glass bottles, and would rather not invest in PET ones just to bring brews to coworkers and friends. As of now all my brews are still and I recycle my glass bottles constantly, and would love to get to use them for soda as well. So another question is what would be a safe psi to carb soda at to be sure of no bombs? I'm fine with lesser carb if it means I don't have to throw more money at my hobby atm. And I especially don't have the income or space to be able to keep these kegs chilled more than room temp.

Sorry for throwing all my noob questions into this thread, but the OP question about soda in glass really caught my attention due to it being what i want to do. Thanks in advance for any help.

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Old 08-04-2011, 01:08 AM   #9
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Well, asking that way... If I were going to bottle soda in glass bottles I would:

Find glass bottles that were rated for a significant psi/volumes of co2. Find out what psi they'll burst at, and make sure the psi is not going to go over that limit, even if the soda is at a warm temperature (like 100 degrees F). As FoodScientist mentioned, if you filled it at max psi at 32 degrees, and kept the temperature constant at 32 degrees, it'll be fine. (Even if we look at perfect transfer with negligible co2 loss)
However this does mean that if the temperature rises to room temperature (I used 100 due to the heatwave), that the psi does increase, and could increase to the point. If you notice here: http://eagar.mit.edu/EagarPapers/Eagar206.pdf it shows some hydrostatic burst tests showing that some glass bottles can reach a pretty good number, as long as there are no cracks.

Once I had bottles I was comfortable knowing the max burst pressure and what pressure I would reach at a given temperature (lets say max 200psi), then I'd feel perfectly fine chilling my soda down to near freezing and pressure filling the bottle at 30 psi.

However... I'm lazy and don't bottle, so I haven't really looked at the real ratings for any glass bottles. At the very least, I'd guess that some soda bottles are at least strong enough and would use those. (Some sodas seem to be less carbonated, and I'd be a little more wary of those though.) I've also not looked for the formula that would tell me what the psi would be at 100 degrees F, if I started with a liquid and a gas at 32 degrees and 30 psi.

******Edit*******
Stupid research genes. I blame my mom. http://www.readconsulting.com/publications/whitepapers/BottleOverPressure.html
http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f14/pressure-beer-bottles-232641/

At least with the last one, if you pressure at 30psi at 32 degrees and keep it at 32 degrees. You're golden. Probably don't want to try letting it warm up, unless you were curious and wanted to let us know the results. I swear I'm not going to try to find the pressure of two volumes when there's mixing involved.

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Waiting to be kegged, Italian Primitivo
Kegged&Ready: GF Orange&Coriander, GF Honey Lager, GF chocolate ale, GF English ale, Island mist (zinfandel), Island mist (cbry malbec).
Bottled: Infected Mead, Dry Hard ciders, Accidental Sorghumwine, various unnamed.

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Old 08-04-2011, 06:25 AM   #10
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Thanks Kevin,

So I guess my plan is gonna be to experiment, so once i get something nice and carb'd in the keg I'll test bottle some, place them in a box or somewhere safe and room temp, and see what happens and I'll bring the results back to the forum. I have both 12 and 22 ounce bottle sizes as well, and thinking I'll also throw some in a fridge to see how they fair in cold.

Any other suggestions welcome, got a bit of time before I have something to bottle, gonna make a ginger beer this weekend, then gotta carb it.

Quick question also in case anyone looking at this thread knows, is it the sugar level in soda that makes it need to be carb'd at a higher psi than beer and ciders? and how is seltzer water compared to the others as well as bottling it in glass?

Thanks



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