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Home Brew Forums > Home Brewing Beer > Hops Growing > Aphids in harvested crop
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Old 08-24-2010, 12:14 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Randar View Post
I actually know the area very well. That said, I still disagree with your conclusion. Because it may be easily washed into your watershed, does not mean all insecticides, fungicides, chemical fertilizers, etc are benign.

Asian Carp love the Illinois river because of the vast nitrates that cause algae bloom and feed the bastards. Where did those nitrates come from? It is all related. Pyrethrin may be less harmful and more benign than other chemicals, true. But blanket statements shouldn't be made on either side.
It also created an awesome opportunity to shoot carp from a motoring boat with a bow and arrow
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Old 08-24-2010, 12:27 AM   #12
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I've been treating my hops with a Neem oil based insecticide with some success FWIW.

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Old 08-24-2010, 07:12 AM   #13
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Same problem for me last year with my Cascades, tossed them out as it creeps me out to think about them floating around in my wort.

I can certainly attest to the headache potential -

Pyrethrins are used in many varieties of insecticide, fogging products and in some pet products. Care should be taken when using this substance around humans and animals. Overdose and toxicity can result in a variety of symptoms, especially in pets, including drooling, lethargy, muscle tremors, vomiting, seizures and death.[5] Toxicity symptoms in humans include asthmatic breathing, sneezing, nasal stuffiness, headache, nausea, incoordination, tremors, convulsions, facial flushing and swelling, and burning and itching sensation.[6]
Pyrethrins are extremely toxic to aquatic life, such as bluegill and lake trout while it is slightly toxic to bird species, such as mallards. Toxicity increases with higher water temperatures and acidity. Natural pyrethrins are highly fat soluble, but are easily degraded and thus do not accumulate in the body. These compounds are also toxic to bees.[6]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrethrin

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Old 08-24-2010, 07:13 PM   #14
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LOL. So the toxins don't accumulate in humans, but there can be short term side effects as well as being toxic to a whole array of wildlife. Sounds AWESOME to me.

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Old 08-24-2010, 07:28 PM   #15
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I would not even think about using those hops!


Just Kidding. I would TOTALLY use those hops! Once they start dehydrating the aphids will leave. Just let them go for a day or so and when they look like they've left, vacuum seal the hops. Whoever decided to stay home will die very shortly. You won't even notice them in the boil (where they will reside as protein and be left in the break material, or left in the trub during fermentation).

Also, there's probably a number of spiders and other bugs that got inside the hops at one point or another. Good chance they were still there when they went on the dehydrator.

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Old 08-24-2010, 09:00 PM   #16
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And that is also a good point. Do you think they pick through the hops to remove bugs before going into the pelletizer? Ummmmm, no. Good chance you've already brewed some of your favorite bugz!

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Old 08-25-2010, 04:52 AM   #17
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You are bound to have some insects and insect carcasses in your hops. You can bet that careful analysis would demonstrate them in commercially purchased hops as well. Those hops are going into boiling wort, right? Not much is likely to survive boiling. The insect carcasses that don't essentially dissolve with boiling will be part of your hot break. Also, remember that hops came into use centuries ago because of their preservative effects on beer; acquiring a taste for them was secondary. I very much doubt that hops harvested in prior centuries had any less problems with aphids. The bugs of concern should be bacteria that can contaminate your wort. Those are less of a worry in a well hopped beer. History and science point towards using them. I you are still put off from using them, I will be happy to provide a mailing address for proper disposal of your contaminated hops!

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Old 08-25-2010, 05:45 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randar View Post
LOL. So the toxins don't accumulate in humans, but there can be short term side effects as well as being toxic to a whole array of wildlife. Sounds AWESOME to me.
Please... you are taking a snipit that someone posted on a forum and not reading about the entire product itself?

Further research will show you that pyrethrins are very quickly degraded by oxygen and light, rendering them harmless to the environment after the initial application. They also do not run into watershed nearly as much as other compounds because they are degraded before becoming run off.


Your post about the Asian carp is very misguiding. Pesticides had absolutely NOTHING to do with the Asian carp...0%.

The Asian carp problem is entirely do to stupid people who imported them and put them into ponds short distances away from Mississippi river tributaries and not thinking about what would happen if there ever was a flood.

There is so much misinformation going on here that I hope there are not many people reading your posts and thinking that pyrethrin is dangerous as like other insecticides or that insecticides caused the Asian carp problem.

Our wonderful misguiding poster above seems to have missed part of what he should have put in that quotation,
read the last sentence here,

"Pyrethrin is extremely toxic to aquatic life, such as bluegill and lake trout while it is slightly toxic to bird species, such as mallards. Toxicity increases with higher water temperatures and acidity. Natural pyrethrins are highly fat soluble, but are easily degraded and thus do not accumulate in the body. These compounds are toxic to bees also.

Because pyrethrin-I, pyrethrin-II, and allethrin have multiple sites in their structures that can be readily attacked in biological systems, it is unlikely that they will concentrate in the food chain
"
http://pmep.cce.cornell.edu/profiles...hrins-ext.html

Actually, if you read that link it also says this, which is even more telling
"
ENVIRONMENTAL FATE
Two pyrethroid synthetic insecticides, permethrin and cypermethrin, break down in plants to produce a variety of products (6). Pyrethrins have little residual effect. In stored grain, 50% or more of the applied pyrethrins disappear during the first three or four months of storage. At least 80% of what remains is removed by handling, processing, and cooking (3).

Pyrethrins alone provide limited crop protection because they are not stable. As a result, they are often combined with small amounts of antioxidants to prolong their effectiveness. Pyrethrum compounds are broken down in water to nontoxic products.

Pyrethrins are inactivated and decomposed by exposure to light and air. Pyrethrins are also rapidly decomposed by mild acids and alkalis. Stored pyrethrin powders lose about 20% of their potency in one year.

As the pyrethrins are purified, their stability decreases; thus, pure pyrethrin-I and pyrethrin-II are the least stable of the pyrethrins (4). Purified pyrethrins are very expensive and are only available for laboratory uses.
"

The stuff is even broke down by water... its not wonder why every chemical company is now getting this stuff and advertising it for their "green" chemical product lines.
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Old 08-26-2010, 02:31 PM   #19
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The same claims have been made about just about every pesticide and herbicide introduced in my lifetime. There is only one way to make sure you aren't poisoning yourself or you land and local wildlife... Don't use it.

It really is not that hard to raise hops organically if you actually try, but you admittedly half-assed it and then poo-pooed it.

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Old 08-26-2010, 02:37 PM   #20
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Also, I never said persticides had anything to do with the Asian Carp problem. They explkoded in the Illinois River and tributaries becauser the nitrate fertilizer runoffs from heavy farming application cause huge algae and plankton blooms that are not natural. It is like going to Fogo De Chaux every day if you're an Asian Carp. That is due to the chemical fert applications that have to be made much more frequently because they are not stable or sustainable in the soil itself. It was part of the larger organic argument.

And your definition of "not harmful" appears to be extremely divergent from mine. Your argument is that it is "probably" less harmful (than the full application strength) due to deterioration.

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