Aphids in harvested crop

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rollinred

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Jan 2, 2008
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Location
Traverse City, MI
Well this year right about at harvest time the aphids found my plants. I had been watching for them all year and only found a couple. These are second year plants btw.


I harvested a little over 1 pound of wet hops last night that looked like there was a few aphids on them and put them in my dehydrator last night.

This morning I woke up to find what looked like a few hundred aphids crawling on my dehydrator. I am assuming the hops got dry enough that the aphids were no longer interested and started crawling out of the crevices I could not see.

So what do you guys think... do I need to throw out these hops because of aphid contamination? What is the SOP for this situation?

You can bet your A$$ that I am going to be full on hardcore chemical pesticide next year. I refuse to deal with these little bastards in a gentle way any longer. I don't even believe in the value of organic anyway so I have no idea why I even tried.

Thanks for the help.
 
Well this year right about at harvest time the aphids found my plants. I had been watching for them all year and only found a couple. These are second year plants btw.


I harvested a little over 1 pound of wet hops last night that looked like there was a few aphids on them and put them in my dehydrator last night.

This morning I woke up to find what looked like a few hundred aphids crawling on my dehydrator. I am assuming the hops got dry enough that the aphids were no longer interested and started crawling out of the crevices I could not see.

So what do you guys think... do I need to throw out these hops because of aphid contamination? What is the SOP for this situation?

You can bet your A$$ that I am going to be full on hardcore chemical pesticide next year. I refuse to deal with these little bastards in a gentle way any longer. I don't even believe in the value of organic anyway so I have no idea why I even tried.

Thanks for the help.

Aphid Ale??

That is a shame but I guess it is really up to you if you want to use them. I don't think if you add them to the boil you are going to get sick but I am no doctor. I also don't know if they will settle out to the bottom or stay floating on top. My guess after boiling and a few weeks out they will settle to the bottom. That is of course if you cannot remove them first. I'd probably not use them if I could not remove them first because eating bugs creeps me out.
 
"I don't even believe in the value of organic anyway so I have no idea why I even tried."

"When you believe in things that you don't understand, you will suffer..."

Even a blind man would have to ask why you tried if you claim to not believe in it anyways. I am not going to start the organic vs non-organic argument with respect to hops, but if you want to drown you and your beer drinkin buddies in chemicals, go for it.
 
As for the aphids, look for em in the protein break, haha. They won't hurt anything if you can get over the "buggy" issue... It's all mental.
 
"I don't even believe in the value of organic anyway so I have no idea why I even tried."

"When you believe in things that you don't understand, you will suffer..."

Even a blind man would have to ask why you tried if you claim to not believe in it anyways. I am not going to start the organic vs non-organic argument with respect to hops, but if you want to drown you and your beer drinkin buddies in chemicals, go for it.


It was an experiment to see if I could get away with just the cheap "natural" methods instead of buying pesticides.

I don't want to start some organic vs non-organic either but I know for sure your statement of "if you want to drown you and your beer drinkin buddies in chemicals, go for it" is way overboard when following proper wait times for harvest after spraying. In fact they won't be getting anything but trace amounts if following a proper wait time, if any at all. Afterall, these chemicals break down from light, water, and oxygen in to harmless substances or quantities. So no I am not worried at all about how much will be in the beer.


I am also not afraid of drinking in a little aphid juice. I was more unsure of how they would have affected the quality of the hops themselves and if they were even viable for brewing with. I have also not opened up the dehydrator to even see if most of them left the hops anyway during drying.
 
It was an experiment to see if I could get away with just the cheap "natural" methods instead of buying pesticides.

I don't want to start some organic vs non-organic either but I know for sure your statement of "if you want to drown you and your beer drinkin buddies in chemicals, go for it" is way overboard when following proper wait times for harvest after spraying. In fact they won't be getting anything but trace amounts if following a proper wait time, if any at all. Afterall, these chemicals break down from light, water, and oxygen in to harmless substances or quantities. So no I am not worried at all about how much will be in the beer.


I am also not afraid of drinking in a little aphid juice. I was more unsure of how they would have affected the quality of the hops themselves and if they were even viable for brewing with. I have also not opened up the dehydrator to even see if most of them left the hops anyway during drying.

I was thinking about that too since aphids suck juices out of leaves so maybe they suck the "pollen" (can't think what it is called right now) too. If they bugs don't creep you out and they smell good you should be ok I'm guessing. Taste an aphid, maybe they taste like hops now too. :D
 
In fact they won't be getting anything but trace amounts if following a proper wait time, if any at all. Afterall, these chemicals break down from light, water, and oxygen in to harmless substances or quantities. So no I am not worried at all about how much will be in the beer.

I'm sorry, but I just simply disagree with both the basic assumption that following the instructions means you are safe as well as ignoring the impact on your local ecosystem. You don't think there is a cumulative impact of consuming "small" or "trace" amounts of chemicals throughout your entire food chain?


I am also not afraid of drinking in a little aphid juice. I was more unsure of how they would have affected the quality of the hops themselves and if they were even viable for brewing with. I have also not opened up the dehydrator to even see if most of them left the hops anyway during drying.

I think you will probably end up with lower AA% than comparable hops without this issue. Did you tear any wet hops in half and examine the lupulin glands/quality and the aroma? You would probably notice a lower than expected aroma or a lack of or reduced presence of the sticky-icky lupulin!
 
Your thinking of lupulin. I don't think they are going to attempt eating that as they prefer the water and proteins inside the veins of the plant.
 
I'm sorry, but I just simply disagree with both the basic assumption that following the instructions means you are safe as well as ignoring the impact on your local ecosystem. You don't think there is a cumulative impact of consuming "small" or "trace" amounts of chemicals throughout your entire food chain?

No, not in trace amounts. Chemicals such pyrethrin have already shown to leave to body very quickly, like hours, after ingesting trace amounts with no buildup whatsoever in the body. And those trace amounts in their tests are ones that would occur with eating fruits and such that have been sprayed with it. I wouldn't ever be able to take in enough beer in one sitting to even come close to hurting anyone or anything.

Also, on the ecosystem thing... no, I am not worried about that, not even one cent. My area is dominated with farms which all spray insecticides heavily because of the large Cherry, apple, corn, and other crops. Not to mention I live on a peninsula surrounded the great lakes and split down the middle with a large inland lake and not once have I ever heard of an issue caused by any of these sprays used by farmers on the insect balance or water. And if there was an area that would have that problem, this would be one of them.

Just check it out on a map. Traverse City, or Lake Leelanau, the town I live in, would be decimated if these chemicals had a substantial effect.


Anyway, like we said before... Lets not make this a pissing match over whats right or wrong because neither of us will budge anyway. I just want to know what others have done in this situation where their hops are pretty loaded with aphids.
 
I actually know the area very well. That said, I still disagree with your conclusion. Because it may be easily washed into your watershed, does not mean all insecticides, fungicides, chemical fertilizers, etc are benign.

Asian Carp love the Illinois river because of the vast nitrates that cause algae bloom and feed the bastards. Where did those nitrates come from? It is all related. Pyrethrin may be less harmful and more benign than other chemicals, true. But blanket statements shouldn't be made on either side.
 
I actually know the area very well. That said, I still disagree with your conclusion. Because it may be easily washed into your watershed, does not mean all insecticides, fungicides, chemical fertilizers, etc are benign.

Asian Carp love the Illinois river because of the vast nitrates that cause algae bloom and feed the bastards. Where did those nitrates come from? It is all related. Pyrethrin may be less harmful and more benign than other chemicals, true. But blanket statements shouldn't be made on either side.

It also created an awesome opportunity to shoot carp from a motoring boat with a bow and arrow :D
 
Same problem for me last year with my Cascades, tossed them out as it creeps me out to think about them floating around in my wort.

I can certainly attest to the headache potential -

Pyrethrins are used in many varieties of insecticide, fogging products and in some pet products. Care should be taken when using this substance around humans and animals. Overdose and toxicity can result in a variety of symptoms, especially in pets, including drooling, lethargy, muscle tremors, vomiting, seizures and death.[5] Toxicity symptoms in humans include asthmatic breathing, sneezing, nasal stuffiness, headache, nausea, incoordination, tremors, convulsions, facial flushing and swelling, and burning and itching sensation.[6]
Pyrethrins are extremely toxic to aquatic life, such as bluegill and lake trout while it is slightly toxic to bird species, such as mallards. Toxicity increases with higher water temperatures and acidity. Natural pyrethrins are highly fat soluble, but are easily degraded and thus do not accumulate in the body. These compounds are also toxic to bees.[6]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrethrin
 
LOL. So the toxins don't accumulate in humans, but there can be short term side effects as well as being toxic to a whole array of wildlife. Sounds AWESOME to me.
 
I would not even think about using those hops!


Just Kidding. I would TOTALLY use those hops! Once they start dehydrating the aphids will leave. Just let them go for a day or so and when they look like they've left, vacuum seal the hops. Whoever decided to stay home will die very shortly. You won't even notice them in the boil (where they will reside as protein and be left in the break material, or left in the trub during fermentation).

Also, there's probably a number of spiders and other bugs that got inside the hops at one point or another. Good chance they were still there when they went on the dehydrator.
 
And that is also a good point. Do you think they pick through the hops to remove bugs before going into the pelletizer? Ummmmm, no. Good chance you've already brewed some of your favorite bugz!
 
You are bound to have some insects and insect carcasses in your hops. You can bet that careful analysis would demonstrate them in commercially purchased hops as well. Those hops are going into boiling wort, right? Not much is likely to survive boiling. The insect carcasses that don't essentially dissolve with boiling will be part of your hot break. Also, remember that hops came into use centuries ago because of their preservative effects on beer; acquiring a taste for them was secondary. I very much doubt that hops harvested in prior centuries had any less problems with aphids. The bugs of concern should be bacteria that can contaminate your wort. Those are less of a worry in a well hopped beer. History and science point towards using them. I you are still put off from using them, I will be happy to provide a mailing address for proper disposal of your contaminated hops!
 
LOL. So the toxins don't accumulate in humans, but there can be short term side effects as well as being toxic to a whole array of wildlife. Sounds AWESOME to me.

Please... you are taking a snipit that someone posted on a forum and not reading about the entire product itself?

Further research will show you that pyrethrins are very quickly degraded by oxygen and light, rendering them harmless to the environment after the initial application. They also do not run into watershed nearly as much as other compounds because they are degraded before becoming run off.


Your post about the Asian carp is very misguiding. Pesticides had absolutely NOTHING to do with the Asian carp...0%.

The Asian carp problem is entirely do to stupid people who imported them and put them into ponds short distances away from Mississippi river tributaries and not thinking about what would happen if there ever was a flood.

There is so much misinformation going on here that I hope there are not many people reading your posts and thinking that pyrethrin is dangerous as like other insecticides or that insecticides caused the Asian carp problem.

Our wonderful misguiding poster above seems to have missed part of what he should have put in that quotation,
read the last sentence here,

"Pyrethrin is extremely toxic to aquatic life, such as bluegill and lake trout while it is slightly toxic to bird species, such as mallards. Toxicity increases with higher water temperatures and acidity. Natural pyrethrins are highly fat soluble, but are easily degraded and thus do not accumulate in the body. These compounds are toxic to bees also.

Because pyrethrin-I, pyrethrin-II, and allethrin have multiple sites in their structures that can be readily attacked in biological systems, it is unlikely that they will concentrate in the food chain
"
http://pmep.cce.cornell.edu/profiles/extoxnet/pyrethrins-ziram/pyrethrins-ext.html

Actually, if you read that link it also says this, which is even more telling
"
ENVIRONMENTAL FATE
Two pyrethroid synthetic insecticides, permethrin and cypermethrin, break down in plants to produce a variety of products (6). Pyrethrins have little residual effect. In stored grain, 50% or more of the applied pyrethrins disappear during the first three or four months of storage. At least 80% of what remains is removed by handling, processing, and cooking (3).

Pyrethrins alone provide limited crop protection because they are not stable. As a result, they are often combined with small amounts of antioxidants to prolong their effectiveness. Pyrethrum compounds are broken down in water to nontoxic products.

Pyrethrins are inactivated and decomposed by exposure to light and air. Pyrethrins are also rapidly decomposed by mild acids and alkalis. Stored pyrethrin powders lose about 20% of their potency in one year.

As the pyrethrins are purified, their stability decreases; thus, pure pyrethrin-I and pyrethrin-II are the least stable of the pyrethrins (4). Purified pyrethrins are very expensive and are only available for laboratory uses.
"

The stuff is even broke down by water... its not wonder why every chemical company is now getting this stuff and advertising it for their "green" chemical product lines.
 
The same claims have been made about just about every pesticide and herbicide introduced in my lifetime. There is only one way to make sure you aren't poisoning yourself or you land and local wildlife... Don't use it.

It really is not that hard to raise hops organically if you actually try, but you admittedly half-assed it and then poo-pooed it.
 
Also, I never said persticides had anything to do with the Asian Carp problem. They explkoded in the Illinois River and tributaries becauser the nitrate fertilizer runoffs from heavy farming application cause huge algae and plankton blooms that are not natural. It is like going to Fogo De Chaux every day if you're an Asian Carp. That is due to the chemical fert applications that have to be made much more frequently because they are not stable or sustainable in the soil itself. It was part of the larger organic argument.

And your definition of "not harmful" appears to be extremely divergent from mine. Your argument is that it is "probably" less harmful (than the full application strength) due to deterioration.
 
Losing battle arguing with this guy red. He has a lot of internet knowledge and a lot of pretty pictures. Just move along, grow yours how you like, and concentrate on HELPING other growers not criticizing with snide comments. We're all after the same thing here, he forgets in most of his posts that I have seen. Too quote Orfy, "never mock another man's brewery".

To Randar: You're AWESOME! Always right, we know. We'll never disagree or offer another opinion again...............sorry.........

To the OP: My experience with aphids has been minimal but if you can find ladybugs, even one or two, place them on the plant even hours before harvest and your aphid headache will be gone. They work fast and are free if you can find them around your yard. I had infested Zues cones last year and the ladybugs helped make one of the best IPAs of my 15 year brewing career.

Crawling on the cones, day one. Ladybugs introduced, day two. Harvested, day seven. NO aphids to be seen. I'm sure they were in there but DON'T be scared. RDWHAHB.
 
Losing battle arguing with this guy red. He has a lot of internet knowledge and a lot of pretty pictures. Just move along, grow yours how you like, and concentrate on HELPING other growers not criticizing with snide comments. We're all after the same thing here, he forgets in most of his posts that I have seen. Too quote Orfy, "never mock another man's brewery".

To Randar: You're AWESOME! Always right, we know. We'll never disagree or offer another opinion again...............sorry.........

To the OP: My experience with aphids has been minimal but if you can find ladybugs, even one or two, place them on the plant even hours before harvest and your aphid headache will be gone. They work fast and are free if you can find them around your yard. I had infested Zues cones last year and the ladybugs helped make one of the best IPAs of my 15 year brewing career.

Crawling on the cones, day one. Ladybugs introduced, day two. Harvested, day seven. NO aphids to be seen. I'm sure they were in there but DON'T be scared. RDWHAHB.

I have not been able to get the ladybugs to do enough work. I thought I would be free of aphids this year, especially when I could count at least 10-20 every time I looked on my plants. They simply could not eat enough aphids to even make a dent. I was able to get some harvest this year but the most unfortunate thing is that I was forced to harvest a couple weeks early because the aphids were killing the plant outright. I would not have been able to leave them on there or every one of them would have been completely dried up.

I simply do not want to loose another harvest due to these little bastards. Next year I am going nuclear on them the second I see one on my plants.
 
Losing battle arguing with this guy red. He has a lot of internet knowledge and a lot of pretty pictures. Just move along, grow yours how you like, and concentrate on HELPING other growers not criticizing with snide comments. We're all after the same thing here, he forgets in most of his posts that I have seen. Too quote Orfy, "never mock another man's brewery".

To Randar: You're AWESOME! Always right, we know. We'll never disagree or offer another opinion again...............sorry.........

To the OP: My experience with aphids has been minimal but if you can find ladybugs, even one or two, place them on the plant even hours before harvest and your aphid headache will be gone. They work fast and are free if you can find them around your yard. I had infested Zues cones last year and the ladybugs helped make one of the best IPAs of my 15 year brewing career.

Crawling on the cones, day one. Ladybugs introduced, day two. Harvested, day seven. NO aphids to be seen. I'm sure they were in there but DON'T be scared. RDWHAHB.

I didn;t say going organic was the only way, but he admitted he half-assed it and then basically opined it was worthless. Quoting short term studies about degredation rates and not having a negative impact despite explicit statements about impacting native species in a toxic manner and short term effects to humans.

Call it whatever you want. I don't go fully organic either but I also don't lie to myself about the possible implications about it or brush them off as irrelevant.

PS, having a discussion yay or nay about certain practices is like politics in a lot of ways, and nobody is necessarily right or wrong. But NOBODY like to have practices they believe in belittled as worthless by people who have only given a passing thought or attempt at them.
 
I simply do not want to loose another harvest due to these little bastards. Next year I am going nuclear on them the second I see one on my plants.

Just want to be sure, but you do realize you're also nuking all of the beneficial insect at the same time, right?

Have you tried praying mantis? Growing companion plantings to attract wasps, etc?

Have you tried this spreadsheet for ideas?
https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0Aitc3OdxDO-WcHBCTExuaVBqTTZKc1l3TnJlTmhZVXc&hl=en#gid=0
 
Just want to be sure, but you do realize you're also nuking all of the beneficial insect at the same time, right?

Have you tried praying mantis? Growing companion plantings to attract wasps, etc?

Have you tried this spreadsheet for ideas?
https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0Aitc3OdxDO-WcHBCTExuaVBqTTZKc1l3TnJlTmhZVXc&hl=en#gid=0


I have no room to plant anything else. As it stands I am in a rented house and letting vines grow up my landlords building, with permission of course.

I have tried the insecticide soaps and they did absolutely nothing. I know I have a strong lady bug population already because they are always on the plants. Next year I am going to use the chemical option and see how much better they turn out. If my plants remain healthier than first two years I will consider it a success.
 
I have no room to plant anything else. As it stands I am in a rented house and letting vines grow up my landlords building, with permission of course.

I have tried the insecticide soaps and they did absolutely nothing. I know I have a strong lady bug population already because they are always on the plants. Next year I am going to use the chemical option and see how much better they turn out. If my plants remain healthier than first two years I will consider it a success.

If insecticidal soaps did 'nothing' than I propose an adjustment to your technique is in order. With a bad infestation you have to apply every three days or so (then repeat when they inevitably(a week or two) come back)...ton of work if you have multiple plants. I have pretty much given up on aphid control because I don't want put in the work. (hops are easy to grow my @ss). I will keep doing what I'm doing and harvestible cones are just a bonus...of course Im a planter 'farmer' so its much more work
 
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