Multiple - The Pious - Westvleteren 12 style quad - multiple - Page 56

mightynintendo · 02-06-2012, 09:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BradL

Hello!

I have read this thread with great interest and will be attempting the Pious Old World recipe in the coming weeks. Thank you, Saq, for the recipe and everyone else for contributing to this thread. I have been amassing all the essentials (2L plate starter set up, temperature controller, brew belt) and I am mostly ready to go. I do have a few questions:

1. My LHBS (American Brewmaster in Raleigh, NC) does not carry Belgian Pale malt. I purchased a half sack of Belgian Pils, so i am good to go there. I have American 2 Row Pale at home. Can i substitute that or would that be too far off? I was thinking I could do 10lbs of Belgian Pils and 6lbs of American 2 row to minimize the impact. I really dont want to pay $15 shipping for 10lbs of grain if i can avoid it.

2. What sort of water profile have people been using? 100% spring water? Any additions?

3. How long do you let the fermentation self rise before kicking on the external heat (if necessary) to bring it up to 83?

Thanks!

Brad

1.) while my stance on this may not be agreed upon by others, in the true spirit of belgian monks who brewed with whatever they had available at the time, I think you should go for it regardless. as to the difference, it is my understanding that the main difference between belgian 2 row pale malt and american 2 row pale malt is that the belgian malt has a higher diastic power and will convert more of its starches to sugars giving you a drier finish. that's just some knowledge you can do whatever you want with.

2.) it was mentioned in this thread that the monks at westvleteren treat their water. i don't know if their treatment is known but it was also mentioned in this thread that the chimey brewery water profile is a good target for this style.

3.) i asked this question myself a while back. it seems that a lot of people hold a low 70's ambient temperature and let the beer self rise to the target temp. at some point you may need to even cool it off to keep it from getting TOO hot. once the temperature starts to drop from its target, that's when you should start heating it externally to hold it at the target for the appropriate length of time. at least this is my understanding.

g-star · 02-07-2012, 02:08 AM

I brewed the Old World last March following the OP mostly as written. After tasting over time and entering it into a few competitions, here's what I learned and what I would do differently next time. As always, YMMV:

1. The Old World really needs a decoction mash. A single infusion mash fails to bring out the most of just the base malt, and the final product lacks something in terms of malt complexity.

2. I would NOT push the temp externally over 75F, in fact I would work to keep it below 75F. I know the monks let it rise to 82F, but I think a large scale fermentation is physically different from a small scale bucket/carboy in a home setting. The biggest demerits I got from several judges was that the alcohol was too hot and/or solventy.

3. If not blasting the temp into the low 80's, make sure to pitch a **** load of yeast and oxygenate to get it to finish around 1.012...this is mandatory. I would consider raising the temp above 75 only after fermentation was 80% finished to ensure a dry enough finish.

Cheers and good luck.

shmEk · 02-07-2012, 02:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rochefort10

Thanks for posting the Video! I've GOT to try this stuff.

You bet, love the video, and I've got a similar brew to Saq's still aging (coming out very nice it seems), and another rebrew in process of contemplation while getting ready for it. I started a 4L and decided to cut it back for some stressing as people mention in the thread so I have extra yeast now

. Best of brewing to all on the quads!

ALF · 02-22-2012, 05:04 PM

After reading this thread and researching other sources about westy12 clones and invert sugar/syrup, Im convinced Layne is on to something. I know blam talks about 85% of the runnings goes into the production of the 8 and 12. I'm starting to think that "missing" 15% goes into the production of invert sugar/syrup.

Could the monks just use regular cane sugar + the first runnings and create their own syrup right in the boiling kettle?

The sweet wort should be full of amino acids, so all that would be needed is maybe some slacked lime to control the pH to prevent the sugars from scorching. Chances are the monks use slacked lime for water treatment as well....

I think im just about ready to brew.

just my 2 cents.

thatjonguy · 02-27-2012, 06:08 PM

I didn't see this in the thread so:

Any thoughts on using the Belgian Pale extract from Williams Brewing for an extract recipe to get closer to the old world version using extracts?

Scribble · 02-28-2012, 02:28 PM

Any hints as to how this version may turn out yet?

Quote:

Originally Posted by saq

Hard to say. Best one I ever did was so far New World batch 1. In a week or so I'm brewing the following

Type: All Grain
Batch Size: 5.50 gal
Boil Size: 7.75 gal
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Estimations

Estimated OG: 1.091 SG
Estimated FG: 1.006 SG
Estimated ABV: 11.4 %
Estimated Pre-Boil Gravity: 1.065 SG
Bitterness: 37.9 IBUs (Rager)
Estimated Color: 36.8 SRM
Color
Brewery Information

Brewer: saq
Assistant:
Equipment: Blichmann 10g Kettle
Efficiency: 75.00

Measurements

Measured OG: 1.090 SG
Measured FG: 1.012 SG
ABV: 10.4 %

Total Grains: 17 lbs 15.4 oz
Total Hops: 2.00 oz

Mash Ingredients
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
8 lbs Pilsner (2 Row) Bel (2.0 SRM) Grain 1 44.5 %
4 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) Bel (3.0 SRM) Grain 2 22.3 %
1 lbs 8.0 oz Caramunich Malt (56.0 SRM) Grain 3 8.4 %
12.0 oz Biscuit Malt (27.0 SRM) Grain 4 4.2 %
5.3 oz Aromatic Malt (20.0 SRM) Grain 5 1.8 %
4.0 oz Special B Malt (180.0 SRM) Grain 6 1.4 %
2.1 oz Chocolate Malt (350.0 SRM) Grain 7 0.7 %

Mash Steps
Name Description Step Temperature Step Time
Mash In Add 22.77 qt of water at 158.2 F 149.0 F 90 min
Fly sparge with 3.85 gal water at 168.0 F

Boil Ingredients
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
2 lbs D90 Candi Syrup (90.0 SRM) Sugar 8 11.1 %
1 lbs D180 Candi Syrup (180.0 SRM) Sugar 9 5.6 %
1.00 oz Brewer's Gold [8.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 10 33.4 IBUs
1.00 oz Styrian Goldings [4.10 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 11 4.6 IBUs
1.00 Items Servomyces (Boil 5.0 mins) Other 12 -

Fermentation Ingredients
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
1.0 pkg Abbey Ale (White Labs #WLP530) [40.00 ml] Yeast 13 -

Fermentation

1/5/2012 - Primary Fermentation (18.00 days at 80.0 F ending at 80.0 F)
1/23/2012 - Secondary Fermentation (3.00 days at 80.0 F ending at 60.0 F)
1/26/2012 - Tertiary Fermentation (3.00 days at 60.0 F ending at 36.0 F)

Do a separate boildown of about 0.75 gallons of first runnings into syrup, should be able to add back to boil kettle before boil gets rolling.

**CidahMastah** · 02-28-2012, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by g-star

2. I would NOT push the temp externally over 75F, in fact I would work to keep it below 75F. I know the monks let it rise to 82F, but I think a large scale fermentation is physically different from a small scale bucket/carboy in a home setting. The biggest demerits I got from several judges was that the alcohol was too hot and/or solventy.

What was the age of your brew when you submitted to the contests? I know after 6 mos there was a huge difference in the hot alc character. Just curious if perhaps you didn't allow that aspect of the brew come into its own by properly aging it.

FWIW I did the new world and followed the ferment temp to 83F as stated with good results.

mahossma · 02-28-2012, 11:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by g-star

2. I would NOT push the temp externally over 75F, in fact I would work to keep it below 75F. I know the monks let it rise to 82F, but I think a large scale fermentation is physically different from a small scale bucket/carboy in a home setting. The biggest demerits I got from several judges was that the alcohol was too hot and/or solventy.

I think the discrepancy here may be where the temp is taken. I believe the temps most people are quoting are of the beer itself in the fermenter. I monitor my beer temps with a wire-like temperature probe the entire fermentation, and I have noticed it is not uncommon for there to be up to a 10 degree difference between the outside temperature and the temp of the beer inside the fermenter (inside is always warmer). An outside temp of 75F plus a vigorous fermentation may have the beer temp close to 85F, which is probably a bit too warm.

mahossma · 03-07-2012, 05:06 PM

After reading the majority of this thread (rope?) I checked out Wesvleteren's website: http://www.sintsixtus.be/eng/proces.htm#grondstoffen
Not sure how recently their site was updated, but I found it interesting that there are details of their brewing process on the website that provide answers to some questions on how a Westy is brewed. Some excerpts of note:
1) "various varieties of two-row summer barley are used"
2) "Granulated sugar is added to enhance the density of the wort"
3) "This mash is gradually heated by means of steam following a well-determined temperature curve. During this process periods of rest are inserted."

Point 1) is no surprise, but I was surprised by point 2) since "granulated" implies that a refined sugar product (i.e. not dark candi syrup) is used. Also, for a true "old world" brewing process, point 3) is in conflict with Candi Sugar Inc's recipe for a Westy 12 clone, where caramelization of the grain while rapidly heating during decoction is noted as being important. This would not be possible with steam-based heating of the decoction mash.

**Layne** · 03-08-2012, 01:32 PM

Hmmm. Interesting.