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Old 03-07-2011, 08:10 PM   #201
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Do to price and me being a cheap ass about some things I am going with out the D2 syrup. The Indian markets have a real dark jaggery from a palm tree called Kitul Jaggery. It has awesome flavor and it's dark dark dark. I just need to go get two more pounds of it and this thing will be officially on deck in the next handful of brews.

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Old 03-07-2011, 08:21 PM   #202
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About to do the transfer to secondary for the 2 months at 50F. It took 2 weeks to get down to the 1.014 SG with adding Nottinghams, I am calling that close enough.

As I am bottling and not kegging, will there still be enough yeast in suspension to carbonate after that much time? Adding yeast at bottling time seems risky to me, more art than science, so trying to avoid that. Any reason why I couldn't just bottle the brews, give them 2 weeks at room temp to carb up, then condition for a few months at 50F in the bottles?

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Old 03-07-2011, 08:27 PM   #203
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About to do the transfer to secondary for the 2 months at 50F. It took 2 weeks to get down to the 1.014 SG with adding Nottinghams, I am calling that close enough.

As I am bottling and not kegging, will there still be enough yeast in suspension to carbonate after that much time? Adding yeast at bottling time seems risky to me, more art than science, so trying to avoid that. Any reason why I couldn't just bottle the brews, give them 2 weeks at room temp to carb up, then condition for a few months at 50F in the bottles?
There will probably be enough yeast but most of the Trappist brewers seem to add fresh yeast at bottling time which is what I plan on doing. For my last Beglian (fermented with 1214), I added some yeast from the krausen of my fermenting Westvleteren clone (3787) and it worked well.

The pitching rates seem to be equivalent to half of a pouch of Wyeast (roughly 100-150 billion cells) for 5 gallon batch. What is the risk in adding a little more yeast anyways?
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Old 03-07-2011, 08:30 PM   #204
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About to do the transfer to secondary for the 2 months at 50F. It took 2 weeks to get down to the 1.014 SG with adding Nottinghams, I am calling that close enough.

As I am bottling and not kegging, will there still be enough yeast in suspension to carbonate after that much time? Adding yeast at bottling time seems risky to me, more art than science, so trying to avoid that. Any reason why I couldn't just bottle the brews, give them 2 weeks at room temp to carb up, then condition for a few months at 50F in the bottles?

To answer your second question, you could do that, but you will get a different result. Bulk aging in a secondary is different that bottle conditioning. It's not necessary worse to age in the bottles but people seem to prefer the flavors produced by bulk aging. Rochefort doesn't seem to builk age at all as there beer is in bottles in less than 2 weeks if I remember correctly so it can be done with good results.
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Old 03-07-2011, 09:03 PM   #205
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Awesome, thanks for the info Gio!

I as concerned that adding a little more yeast would potentially result in over carbing, but I supposed if I add the same amount of priming sugar as I would then it wouldn't change the carb level terribly much.

I will have to look around for info on how to harvest yeast from krausen, sounds neat.

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Old 03-07-2011, 09:25 PM   #206
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Awesome, thanks for the info Gio!

I as concerned that adding a little more yeast would potentially result in over carbing, but I supposed if I add the same amount of priming sugar as I would then it wouldn't change the carb level terribly much.

I will have to look around for info on how to harvest yeast from krausen, sounds neat.
Yeah, it's the sugar and the oxygen in the bottle that is the limiting factor when carbing, not the amount of yeast.

I just sanitize a turkey baster and suck up from the middle of the krausen when it is at it's highest. You can then store it in a small mason jar in the refrigerator for use later.
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Bottle Conditioning: Rochefort 10 Clone
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Old 03-09-2011, 10:43 PM   #207
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I think it's funny that you can call them "authentic" syrups. That's a pretty meaningless term, but it sounds good for marketing, so it'll probably serve you well.

I hope the AHA doesn't mind, but I had the opportunity to ask Stan Hieronymus from BLAM about this for the last AHA "Ask and expert" column:
The gist of my question was "what's the deal with dark candi syrup?"
Stan Answers:
“Authentic” seems to cause particular confusion when it comes to monastery-brewed beers. Every Trappist brewery in Belgium has made many changes in process in recent years, even since BLAM was published. Things certainly have changed since the 1920s when Westmalle began using what was referred to as “candi sugar,” but was in fact what we would call dark syrup. Does the fact that a brewery would change vendors over time make it less authentic?

But specifically, no, there is no single vendor. The companies that make the syrup do much more business with confectionary manufacturers. Literally at the same time that BLAM was working its way through the final stages of production Brian Mercer was tracking down syrups to import and the result was Dark Candi Inc. I wouldn’t call it “black magic” but I’ve since tasted many American-brewed beers that have the same rich, rummy character you find in a beer from Rochefort, and those beers included Dark Candi in the recipe. As Randy Mosher has pointed out in his own books, and in providing a syrup recipe for BLAM, you can make your own dark syrup. You can also experiment with less refined sugars from specialty grocers. For example there is a Mexican grocery near me that sells a sugar with distinct rummy notes."
Just as an insight from our tests, Randy Mosher's recipe is not an authentic, (nor a close approximation), Candi Syrup. Early on, we tried his and other permutations on the web and in print. All fail to match "authentic" Candi Syrup based on our use of gas chromatography throughout our due diligence to baseline the recipe(s). If you read the entire thread on this subject you'll note my partner is a Food Chemist. We've been trialing methods and materials for just over a year and have duplicated, (and in the opinion of some more than exceeded), the quality of the import syrups. Refined or unrefined sugars from Jaggary to Turbinado to Demerara, Beet, Cane, make no difference whatsoever. The complexity does not originate in the level of refined sucrose or lack of it or the origin of the sucrose, (Beet or Cane). If you are after a "rummy" affect then just use Sorghum. It's cheaper. If you're after something a little more complex then you'll need to use a more complex syrup. I think brewers, (including me), want the very best result from a Belgian Ale recipe. If you're interested in quality syrups and the science behind them you may look at the following volumes to give you a more empirical perspective on food flavor, especially the sections on sugars:

- Fenaroli's Handbook of Flavor Ingredients, Sixth Edition by George A. Burdock
- Flavor Chemistry and Technology, Second Edition by Gary Reineccius

The recipes, concepts, and materials you mention above sum up what we have affectionately come to know as the "Candi Syrup Myths". It has accumulated over many years and is propagated in many publications and is mostly wrong. I have always suspected the syrup makers and dealers of seeding the myths but there is no way of knowing the single point of origin. It does make for interesting and humorous reading. My favorite is that Candi Syrup is the "byproduct of the candy making process" and there is still one manufacturer in Holland still plunking this on their web site in Dutch. The funniest thing about this is that the manufacturer doesn't make candy or precursors! LOL! I think the discussion based on "there is no definition" is yet another in a long list of deflections and myth and is a diversion from a more studied approach. Out of curiosity what methods are you using to measure "authentic" v. "inauthentic" in modern Candi Syrups?

We've taken the time and legal expense to patent our process. We also no longer use imports in our most expensive clones. They are simply inferior. This represents our own self-assurance and self-practice of what we have come to know to be true. We use only the best products for Belgian Ales. Our products will easily market themselves.
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Old 03-09-2011, 11:21 PM   #208
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Well, first look up the definition of "authentic." If you are making "authentic" Trappist candi syrup, the sugar needs to be 1) Belgian, 2) used by Trappist breweries, and 3) made with the same ingredients and process.

Can Toyota make an "authentic" Ford Taurus? If you painted an exact copy of a Matisse, would your painting be "authentic?"

I'm not arguing about the quality of your product, just your poor choice of words. You can make a good syrup for brewing, but being "good" doesn't mean it's "authentic."

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Old 03-10-2011, 12:59 AM   #209
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Just as an insight from our tests, Randy Mosher's recipe is not authentic, (nor a close approximation). Early on, we tried his and nearly every other permutation on the web and in print. All fail to match "authentic" Belgian syrups based on our use of gas chromatography throughout. If you read the entire thread on this subject you'll note my partner is a Food Chemist. We've been trialing methods and materials for just over a year and have duplicated, (and in the opinion of some more than exceeded), the quality of the Belgian import syrups. Refined or unrefined sugars from Jaggary to Turbinado to Demerara, Beet, Cane, make no difference whatsoever. The complexity does not originate in the level of refined sucrose or lack of it. If you are after a "rummy" affect then just use Sorghum. It's cheaper. If you're after something a little more complex then you'll need to use a more complex syrup. I think brewers, (including me), want the very best result from a Belgian Ale recipe. Since I'm not sure what your angle is or if you have a vested interest in your statements, I can only guess that you're probably a vendor of long-shelved Belgian import syrups, (or even a dealer). If you're not a dealer or syrup retailer and you're serious about quality and obtaining a better syrup, you may look at the following volumes to give you a more empirical perspective on food flavor, especially the sections on sugars:

- Fenaroli's Handbook of Flavor Ingredients, Sixth Edition by George A. Burdock
- Flavor Chemistry and Technology, Second Edition by Gary Reineccius

The recipes, concepts, and materials you mention above sum up what we have affectionately come to know as the "Belgian Syrup Myths". It has accumulated over many years and is propagated in many publications and is mostly wrong. I have always suspected the syrup makers of seeding the myths but there is no way of knowing the single point of origin. It does make for interesting reading though. My favorite is that Belgian Candi Syrup is the "byproduct of the candy making process" and there is still one manufacturer in Holland still promoting this. I think the discussion based on "there is no definition" is yet another in a long list of deflections and myth. Out of curiosity what methods are you using to measure "authentic" v. "inauthentic" in modern Belgian syrups?

We've taken the time and legal expense to patent our process. This represents our own self-assurance. The product will easily market itself.
Thanks so much again for sharing your knowledge. It seems that most people out there think that candi syrup can be easily recreated at home and it frustrates me to no end because the recipes don't even taste the same (gas chromatography aside). My LHBS even tried to sell dark rock candy sugar when I asked them if they had D2 claiming it was the same thing and I didn't need to pay more for an import.

What are you using as a standard to test your syrups against? Are you comparing with the syrups from dark candi? Have you been able to get other Belgian syrups imported? Do they vary in composition too and if so, how can you tell which ones are actually used by the brewers in Belgium?

I'm not a chemist either but I'm interested in learning more about it (and pretty much anything that could make my Belgians taste better) so I'm going to take a look at those books (they are way out of my price range on amazon but fortunately I've located them in libraries nearby). Do you think they would be accessible to someone with a strong science background but no particular chemistry past intro college-level chem (not organic)?
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Secondary 3: Pre-prohibition American Lager
Bottle Conditioning: Weihenstephaner Hefeweissbier
Bottle Conditioning: Cherry Wheat
Bottle Conditioning: Rochefort 10 Clone
Drinking: Westvleteren 12 Clone

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Old 03-10-2011, 02:00 AM   #210
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Quote:
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There will probably be enough yeast but most of the Trappist brewers seem to add fresh yeast at bottling time which is what I plan on doing. For my last Beglian (fermented with 1214), I added some yeast from the krausen of my fermenting Westvleteren clone (3787) and it worked well.

The pitching rates seem to be equivalent to half of a pouch of Wyeast (roughly 100-150 billion cells) for 5 gallon batch. What is the risk in adding a little more yeast anyways?
geo is right on the money. As an aside, you may also want to hold your bottles at a modest 75-78F for 10-14 days for initial carbonation....then off to the cellar! I have to admit this is about the best Belgian recipe we have brewed. saq and team did us all quite a favor in researching and testing this.
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