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Old 01-13-2013, 11:12 PM   #1051
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Originally Posted by ultravista View Post

Since my starting gravity was 4 points higher, should I also expect my finishing gravity to be four points higher as well? For example, 1.090 to 1.012 (per the recipe) is 1.094 to 1.016 ... is my thought process correct?
Yes and no. Apologies for the ambiguity...clarity below.

We start with a scalar gravity-to-cell-count table. There is a doc out on our site under Help Docs with a table for pitching to target OG's specifically for high gravity Belgians. It has a seed rate column in it also to help get you to the right count per starter volume.

The quantity of starter is not always the most accurate means to determine pitch count. Starter seed rate, the build-up, starter wort gravity, O2, and then volume all play a role it estimating counts. Of course if we have a 1 ml pipette, Gram positive stain, a reasonably good microscope and a lot of time we can get a better estimate, (but it will still be an estimate albeit more accurate).

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I pitched a 1.5 ML starter, .5 mil short. Does this explain the missing attenuation? In other words, a bigger starter would have brought the FG down further? If yes, please explain why.
Potentially yes, a low pitch volume could have failed to complete before target gravity assuming the starter was seeded with say 100 billion cells.

Potentially no, if the starter was seeded with 200-240 billion cells, (2 White Labs vials), a 1500ml starter would have hit target gravity. 3 points over in OG would likely not have stopped a pitch rate designed for 1.090 but primary may have been extended another day.

[QUICK EDIT] Gravity can also be cross-checked with a refractometer as long as the wort/ale sample is relatively clear.
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Old 01-14-2013, 01:48 AM   #1052
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ultravista I would look into checking and calibrating all your equipment, your hydrometer, thermometer especially. I think you should have finished a little drier than that. My OG was 1.096 and I finished at 1.010, and that was with mashing a little hotter at 151. Also remember that it isn't REALLY 1.010, because the high volume of alcohol is bringing down the gravity of the sample since alcohol is much lighter than water. This makes the beer seem to measure drier than it actually tastes. To illustrate, I had a huge IPA with lots sugar and it hit somewhere in the realm of 16% alcohol. The measured FG was 1.000, even though it had a little sweetness. I would love to see a calculator that compensates for this to extrapolate the true FG and also get a more accurate ABV but there isn't one that I know of.

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Old 01-14-2013, 01:47 PM   #1053
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bottlebomber - I'm using a Thermapen that I tested and calibrated. Between the TPen and another semi-expensive digital pen (can't remember the brand), we're talking .5 of a degree difference. I am comfortable with the temperature measurement at this point.

The hydrometers, we'll, while they are are about 1 point off measuring wort, both are dead-on at 1.000 in water, distilled and tap.

My refractometer was also calibrated with distilled and tap water, it too zero's out when tested.

A few points from this batch:
* 1.5L starter was one two week old vial of WLP530 with no forced O2, made with DME
* 90 minute mash was 148-149 (F)
* OG was 1.094 measured with a refractometer
* Wort was oxygenated through a 2 micron stone for approximately 60 seconds
* Starter wort was decanted, only the yeast slurry was pitched
* The wort was 64 degrees when the yeast was pitched
* Wort temperature is measured through a thermowell, center mass of the wort in a glass carboy, with a Johnson A419 controller
* Temperature was left to free rise to 76 (max) and got there within 24 hours
* Krausen came and went quickly, seemed to last less than 24 hours (was at work, not 100% certain on time)
* Blow-off was pretty heavy and thick in the 1 gallon container (lots of yeast in there)
* Temperature began to drop post krausen, applied external heat set to 80F (12/30)
* Maintained 80-80F for a minimum of 7 days
* Active fermemtation came and went in a short very agressive burst (estimated 1 day)
* OG was 1.094 on 12/28
* FG was 1.018/20 on 01/05
* FG was 1.018/20 on 01/12
* The carboy has been at rest since pitching, no rousing of the yeast has occcured
* Visually, the off-gassing has stopped and the airlock does not move
* Temperature is 67F

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Old 01-14-2013, 06:00 PM   #1054
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Ultravista,
What recipe did you use? Any variations on the recipe?
You need to get your primary fermentation temperature up above 76f, but not in the first day. I'd let it free rise up to 80f.
This temperature increase makes the yeast a lot more active which then increases attenuation quite a bit.

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Old 01-14-2013, 07:08 PM   #1055
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I just bottled 48 375ml bottles and 24 750ml bottles! I put them in Belgian crown capped bottles with black caps. Look all sorts of classy, but totally unnecessary, haha.

I was asking some other people about repitching for bottling, and they all said not to do it and what not. I ended up going along with what the consensus is here and repitched yeast at bottling. Just split a packet of US 05 between the double batch. I was going to use Champagne yeast, but I had US 05 on hand.

Going into bottles, I tried some and it was great! Really looking to see how this sucker matures.

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Old 01-14-2013, 09:25 PM   #1056
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saq View Post
Ultravista, What recipe did you use? Any variations on the recipe?

You need to get your primary fermentation temperature up above 76f, but not in the first day. I'd let it free rise up to 80f. This temperature increase makes the yeast a lot more active which then increases attenuation quite a bit.


saq, I used your new world recipe with the exception of .5# extra 180 (didn't want to keep a partial container).

Primary fermentation only free rose to 76f where it sat for a couple of hours then began drop. I appplied external heat, 80f, at that point for 7 days. Excluding the rise from 64 to ambient.

Ambient temperature is 67f where the carboy sits, therefore it rose freely 9 degrees.

I was surprised that it did not get higher or stay at 76f for very long. The primary active fermentation came-and-went quickly. It was (and still is) covered with a t-shirt sitting in a milk crate on chair in the kitchen.

Do you recommend applying heat again, back up to 80f, rousing the yeast, or anything else short of pitching new yeast?

Could there be any unintended consequences to taking it back up to 80f for a while? There's no doubt that it's dormant or near-dormant at 67f.
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Old 01-15-2013, 11:50 AM   #1057
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ultravista View Post
Primary fermentation only free rose to 76f where it sat for a couple of hours then began drop. I appplied external heat, 80f, at that point for 7 days. Excluding the rise from 64 to ambient.

Ambient temperature is 67f where the carboy sits, therefore it rose freely 9 degrees.

I was surprised that it did not get higher or stay at 76f for very long. The primary active fermentation came-and-went quickly. It was (and still is) covered with a t-shirt sitting in a milk crate on chair in the kitchen.
Sounds like the only possible problem was an under-pitch. I get my version from 1.090 down to 1.013 maintaining a temp of 72F for the bulk of fermentation, and ramping to 78F towards the end. This is with a pitch of about 350B cells, and aeration for 30min.
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Old 01-15-2013, 02:21 PM   #1058
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350B cells, approximately what size starter is that?

30min aeration?

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Old 01-15-2013, 03:13 PM   #1059
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Brewed the Original recipe on Sunday. Second day of Fermentation and this is doing well at 82° and a strong bubble. The aroma is awesome and looking forward to this a couple months out.

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Old 01-15-2013, 04:28 PM   #1060
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350B cells, approximately what size starter is that?

30min aeration?
3.8L on a stirplate, assumming 75% viability from one tube.

The wort was separated from the break material and aerated using a pump witha HEPA filter and a 2um sintered stone for 30 minutes immediately prior to pitching the decanted slurry. If one has an O2 setup, that could obviously be cut down significantly.
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