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Old 08-08-2013, 03:59 PM   #91
Ettels4
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Ok, but then we would end up with bottle bombs since eventually the bottles sit at 70F+ for months before you buy them. Maybe I'm missing your point
There will be no bottle bomb if there are no more sugars fermentable by the bottling yeast. Same as any home-brew bottled with various fermentables. A lager yeast would ferment all it could at lower temperatures.
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Old 08-08-2013, 04:16 PM   #92
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There will be no bottle bomb if there are no more sugars fermentable by the bottling yeast. Same as any home-brew bottled with various fermentables. A lager yeast would ferment all it could at lower temperatures.
But the lager yeast would also ferment all the unfermentables left by the ale yeast, would create tons of CO2, way more than needed to carb the beer. Unless they add the lager yeast to the wort once the ale yeast poops out, let it ferment whatever's left, then prime/bottle the beer. But again, if they were to do that, IMO the lager yeast would take the beer much lower than 1.015, it's a highly fermentable grain bill.

Oh well, let's put this one to rest for now, will give you an update once I taste it.
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Old 08-11-2013, 01:58 PM   #93
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@anh6513 and Ettels4

Good discussion and thanks a lot for new info. Could you give details on the source of (1) Bosteels using 2 yeasts for Karmeliet, (2) hops being Styrian Goldings and Saaz instead of Hallertau?

About 10 years ago, Karmeliet bottle yeast had a very good reputation amongst homebrewers in the BeNeLux for brewing Belgian styles. People were very succesfull in cloning Kwak with this yeast, so we were pretty sure that it was the primary strain then. But Ettels4 is right: we cannnot be sure that it still is. First taste after primary fermentation was very good though.

I moved my batch with Bosteels yeast to the fridge yesterday for 1 week of lagering @ 1 degree Celsius. Next Friday or Saturday I will bottle condition about half and transfer the other half to a keg. If I speed up the forced carbonation, I can have a first comparison against commercial Karmeliet next Sunday or so.

Regards, Freek

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Old 08-12-2013, 02:34 PM   #94
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Could you give details on the source of (1) Bosteels using 2 yeasts for Karmeliet, (2) hops being Styrian Goldings and Saaz instead of Hallertau?
Can't comment on the yeast, but the styrian/saaz combo is mentioned on several sites (here for instance). Most belgian tripels/goldens use this combo anyway, I don't know many that use hallertau.

Wikipedia mentions styrians only (link).

Will do a gravity reading later this am, stay tuned.
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Old 08-12-2013, 04:14 PM   #95
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Just took a gravity reading, beer is currently sitting at 1.014. Pitched at 67F and slowly ramped it up to 78F over the last 2 weeks. OG was 1.072, so current ABV is right below 8% (the original clocks at 8.4%). I'll do another reading in 2 days, but I'm pretty sure it's not going to end up much lower than that. In other words, it's confirmed, this yeast does not attenuate as much as your average Belgian strain.

As for the taste, it tastes really good, but more like a wit at this stage, strong orange taste. I'm sure it will tone down over time, but if I brew this one again, I'll use less orange peel. For what it's worth, I used fresh organic orange, lots of flavor, maybe that's why.

I don't taste the coriander at all, even though I cranked up the amount compared to the original recipe. The licorice does come through, but it's very subdued.

Will let it age a couple of weeks in primary, lager it, bottle it, and update in a couple of months.

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Old 08-12-2013, 08:59 PM   #96
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The hops and yeast info both came from "Brew Like a Monk" by Stan Hieronymus. Also of note from that book, primary ferment is @75F for a week and then its secondaried for a month @32F. The only adjunct is sucrose (table sugar). IBUs are 20. OG is 1.081. "...includes a solid dose of unspecified spices." Coriander is the only obvious one I can pick out but there are certainly more.

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Old 08-17-2013, 07:17 PM   #97
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Couple of hours ago (remember ... it's 5 o'clock somewhere) we tasted the Karmeliet clone brewed with bottle yeast after 1.5 days of forced carbonation, and compared it with the real thing bottle conditioned. Attached picture shows clone on the left and commercial Karmeliet on the right. The clone is drinkable, but not very similar. Highly unlikely that the primary yeast strain is currently used for bottle conditioning. No sulphur in smell or taste, but the ester profile is quite different. Interesting experiment, but now I am stuck with 25 liters of not very good tripel.

We also noticed that the original has way more coriander smell and taste than the clone attempt. Anh6513 is right to crank it up.

I will probably try to find someone who preserved the yeast when primary and bottling yeast were still the same via Dutch and Belgian fora. Especially for my Kwak clone attempt in coming brewing season.

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Old 08-18-2013, 03:21 PM   #98
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Interesting experiment, but now I am stuck with 25 liters of not very good tripel
I'm afraid mine will also taste quite different based on a sample I recently took for a gravity reading. Lagering it right now...

It's likely the bottling yeast is different after all, but the issue also comes from to the fact that we used the wrong hops, and I'm sure the suggested spice blend is far from being similar to the one Bosteels uses. Oh well.

Will update once it's bottle conditioned.

UPDATE (08/19): The beer has been lagering for 3 days @ 35F, and somehow, I'm getting some airlock activity, very odd. I thought the beer might be degasing since it was shaken a bit while I moved it, but given the massive drop in temperature, it's highly unlikely. So, the other possible explanation is that the yeast might have resumed some fermentation. Another hint that the bottling yeast could very well be a lager yeast...
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Old 08-19-2013, 01:27 PM   #99
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Damn, thats too bad. I was hoping this would have worked out. When I finally get around to making this I am probably going to go with WLP575. Seems like a beer like this is going to take a few batches to get even close. You need spicing that will be similar and a yeast that will be similar and still need to figure out how to balance the mash temp, sucrose percentage, and grain bill in order to come out with a similar flavor and FG. I'm just hoping that in the meantime I can make some good if not cloned tripels to drink.

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Old 11-08-2013, 12:43 PM   #100
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Final update: I flushed all the beer with the "Bosteels" yeast from the bottle. The reference beer with Nottingham yeast is drinkable, but too dry. Alas, not all experiments are successful.

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