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Old 07-24-2013, 08:00 PM   #91
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I ended up doing my dopplebock last weekend. There is a definite carmelization I think that occurs during the boil, as the decoction part of the mash was significantly different and richer in color than the main mash. My Oktoberfest is lacking that character I think, from my step mash, and also lacking in the typical malty flavors. I may fortify my kegged Oktoberfest with 5% of the dopplebock when it is finished, in order to try and restore that. I will experiment first with a blend in the glass of course. I may just end up calling in an amber lager, or Septemberfest; like an Oktoberfest, just not quite there.

So I would definitely do the decoction. If you absolutely cannot do a decoction, I would suggest adding some crystal malts and possibly some other specialty malts to lend more maltiness to this brew.

TD

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Old 07-24-2013, 08:47 PM   #92
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I think Melanoidin malt is the what you typically use to emulate the effects of decoction... maybe a 1/4 lb added to the grain bill for a 5 gal batch... But there is some evidence that a decoction doesn't add that much to a beer:

see the conclusions on pg 28 of this presentation by Denny Conn:
http://518124.cache1.evolutionhostin.../DennyConn.pdf

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Old 07-24-2013, 10:54 PM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtratcliff View Post
I think Melanoidin malt is the what you typically use to emulate the effects of decoction... maybe a 1/4 lb added to the grain bill for a 5 gal batch... But there is some evidence that a decoction doesn't add that much to a beer:

see the conclusions on pg 28 of this presentation by Denny Conn:
http://518124.cache1.evolutionhostin.../DennyConn.pdf
Thanks for sharing.

I do not agree with you colclusion: decoction doesn't add that much. I read the PDF, and there was a preference for the decocted brew. There were no real malt accentuated styles, unless you consider the Munich Dunkel, but I'm not a German beer expert. I think there is clear proof the maltiness was enhanced. There does not appear to be any descriptor of the tasters qualifications either, though perhaps I missed that. I like the scientific method, but I am not certain that the union of no preference responders with the non-decocted responders is a valid statistical assumption.

I will say that the recipe posted in THIS thread, as brewed by myself, is definitely not to BJCP style. I could be my boil was weak but I suspect it is the lack of decoction and doing a step mash without adding any crystal malts to compensate as you suggest. While decoction mashing is laborious, it appears to have benefit in both malt flavor contribution, color contribution, and also boosts efficiency in my system by nearly 7%. That said, am I not going to rush into doing another decoction anytime soon, because it took a very long time, and there was significant tieg, slowing the sparge.

each should decide for themselves on their system I think, though I do appreciate the PDF. thanks for sharing that.

TD
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Old 07-25-2013, 12:01 AM   #94
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Maybe I should have said "some suggestion" instead of "some evidence" I agree lumping the "no preference" in with "preferred no-decocted version" is a bit wonky. But it does at least suggest that the "improvement" due to decoction isn't dramatic, or more people would have preferred it, presumably.

Just pointing out that if you can't (or don't want to) do the decoction, some folks say you might not be missing out on too much. Especially if you can toss in some melanoidin malt.

In Kaiser's decoction video (part 3 at around 8:39,

) he show's that a double decoction doesn't add much in the way color. But yeah, extra flavor is the goal. The efficiency boost is a bonus too.

I didn't find my decoction that laborious but I only did a single mashout decoction (but I did otherwise step the mash for protein and sacchrification rests). I still think it's worth doing. If only to say that you've done it

I've only done 1 decoction, myself. And never side by side in the same recipe. The one I did (single mashout decoction) came out delicious and I will definitely decoct again when I re-brew that same recipe.
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Old 07-25-2013, 12:32 AM   #95
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Heh!


I'm in the me boat as well. I only have done one decoction mash, it was a single decoction at that, though a large one. Try doing a decoction earlier next time. You will pick up some efficiency points ill bet from boiling the mash, liberating additional starches not accessible from just crushing/milling (at least that is what I think is happening). The mash out decoction is also supposed to be thin as opposed to thick so little different effect and result I think.

I wasn't trying to be a jerk I hope and think your realize that. I was rather hoping that I disliked the effects of the decoction, but to the contrary I was rather happy I had extra efficiency for the doppelbock. Hopefully it'll be an awesome beer. I've never tried a doppelbock any other way, so a side by side is not possible. I think as far as malty styles, the dopplebock is one of the kings of the malty brew styles, so I hope this comes out in the glass when its all through. Lacking a control for comparative purposes, its hard to say for sure the decoction was key for my brew. However, having brewed this exact recipe for Oktoberfest several week previous (I think I'm into week 5 of lagering now), that sample indicate it is off for style from doing a regular step mash. I agree adding crystal and possibly melanoiden malt might help. I wouldn't do this brew again without either a decoction, or a modification of the grist to include some crystal and possibly melanoiden malts to make up for the missing maltiness that my step mash lacked... More of an amber lager.

TD

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Old 07-25-2013, 03:00 AM   #96
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No jerkiness detected or assumed

Exchange of ideas, information, and opinions is why I come to HBT.

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Old 07-26-2013, 05:37 AM   #97
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Yeeuhhh!

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Old 07-29-2013, 09:50 PM   #98
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Well it seems to have taken hold =\

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Old 08-08-2013, 12:31 PM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MacrosNZ
Well it seems to have taken hold =\
Did you use the mangrove jack yeast on this one?

Next time I try this, def gonna do the decoction instead of step mash. Mine is more like an amber lager than an Oktoberfest.
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Old 08-08-2013, 09:52 PM   #100
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No, two packets of saflager 34w70 rehydrated.

Mine was out of recipe anyway. I didn't get the efficiency I needed (converted from F to C incorrectly during mash) so had to add in light DME.

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