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Old 06-05-2012, 07:01 PM   #1
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Default All-Grain - Ocas Lishky (Pilsner Urquell Clone)

Recipe Type: All Grain
Yeast: WLP 800
Yeast Starter: 1 l starter
Batch Size (Gallons): 5
Original Gravity: 1.050
Final Gravity: 1.013
IBU: 38
Boiling Time (Minutes): 90
Color: 5.5
Primary Fermentation (# of Days & Temp): 21
Additional Fermentation: lager for at least 28 days
Tasting Notes: This beer took first place in the 2011 PU Master Homebrewer Comp in NYC

Batch Size (Gal): 5.00 Wort Size (Gal): 5.00
Total Grain (Lbs): 7.13
Anticipated OG: 1.048 Plato: 12.01
Anticipated SRM: 5.6
Anticipated IBU: 37.9
Brewhouse Efficiency: 90 %
Wort Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential SRM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
70.2 5.00 lbs. F B Pilsener
7.0 0.50 lbs. Pilsner malt home toasted
7.0 0.50 lbs. Rye Malt
7.0 0.50 lbs. Aromatic Malt
5.3 0.38 lbs. Wheat - BestMalz
3.5 0.25 lbs. Flaked Oats

Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
22.00 g. Sterling Whole 9.30 32.0 First WH
10.00 g. Saazer Whole 3.00 1.6 20 min.
10.00 g. Goldings - E.K. Whole 5.00 2.7 20 min.
8.00 g. Saazer Whole 3.00 0.6 5 min.
8.00 g. Goldings - E.K. Whole 5.00 1.1 5 min.

Yeast
White Labs WLP800 Pilsner Lager

Mash Schedule

Protein rest at 122 F for 20 min. then a 12 min ramp to 146 F and held for 30 min. Then a 7 min. ramp to 158 F and held for 15 min. Then up to 168 F for a mash out

My goal is to get nearly complete conversion at 146 F (for crispness) and then ramp it up to 158 F to get some more dextrins to improve the body

Fermented at 50 F

Notes
Pilsner malt was toasted for 30 min. at 350 F. It was turned every 10 min.
2 gal, of distilled water plus one gal. of tap water was used for the mash and 2 gal of distilled plus 3 of tap water was used for the sparge.

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Kegged and Aging/Lagering:CAP, CAP II, Wheat lager, Imperial Pilsner, Ger. Pils, OKZ (std Amer. lager), OKZ II (for base malt comparison), light beer - yes, light beer, Belgian IPA, IPA,
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Old 06-07-2012, 06:35 PM   #2
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That grist looks NOTHING like an Urquell. It's one of my fav styles and I've done tons of research. I have no idea how the judges didn't taste all of this:

7.0 0.50 lbs. Rye Malt
7.0 0.50 lbs. Aromatic Malt
5.3 0.38 lbs. Wheat - BestMalz
3.5 0.25 lbs. Flaked Oats

Just my 2c

Edit to add:

the hops are also way off; I'd stick with all Saaz. Also, I'd do myself the favor of doing a single infusion mash at 155 which should give the body you want without all the decoction.

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Last edited by HopToItHomebrew; 06-07-2012 at 06:37 PM. Reason: to add
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Old 06-07-2012, 08:53 PM   #3
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I understand the grain bill looks nothing like Urquell. However it tastes just like the stuff available in Europe. One the the judges, and the one who had the final say, was the brewmaster himself. So if the brewmaster himself thinks the beer tastes like PU, the recipe can't be bad.

This was for last year's contest and the instructions had 15 % artistic impression as part of the judging critera (that is out this year). So I didn't set out to clone what I was used to in the typical PU found in the US. I wanted to tweak it, so I did. It just happens that my tweaks made it taste just like the stuff poured in Europe and at Hospoda where the contest was held (their PU kegs are shipped special to them - unpastuerized in refrigerated shipping containers - it is the only beer they serve).

Other than the rye, the extra grains I added were done to mimic a decoction as I thought it would be fun to try it that way.

I wanted to tweak the spicy so that is why the rye is there. Then to avoid making it too spicy I backed off on the Saaz and added in a more neutral hop. Sterling is VERY Saaz like. I like it as it has a higher AA% so I can use less and avoid any grassy notes from having to add a lot of low AA% hops to get the bitterness up there. Plus it stores better. Saaz has very poor storability.

155 F is way too high for a single infusion pilsner. What you gain in body, you loose in crispness. Also a decoction is done primarily for flavor, not for body

They use step mashes in the brewery (got the tour) so if I'm not decocting, I can at least do a step mash

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On Tap: Ger. Pils, OKZ (std Amer. lager), CZ Pils, Maibock,
Kegged and Aging/Lagering:CAP, CAP II, Wheat lager, Imperial Pilsner, Ger. Pils, OKZ (std Amer. lager), OKZ II (for base malt comparison), light beer - yes, light beer, Belgian IPA, IPA,
Secondary:
Primary: Pale Ale
Brewing soon: Saison
Recently kicked : ( IPA, Bock, Saison,
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Old 07-25-2012, 03:44 PM   #4
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This beer has now taken second place in the 2012 PU Master Homebrewer Comp in NYC.

I'd say the recipe is a winner.

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Secondary:
Primary: Pale Ale
Brewing soon: Saison
Recently kicked : ( IPA, Bock, Saison,
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P U crowns winners in its inaugural master HB competition
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Old 07-28-2012, 03:37 AM   #5
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I tasted it, it was better than mine and I did a much more traditional recipe. Don't knock it till you try it.

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Old 07-29-2012, 01:07 PM   #6
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I think I"ll try this one this fall, instead of my traditional BoPils. I think it'll be fun, although I might decoct anyway to step mash instead of ramping. Thanks!

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Old 07-29-2012, 02:03 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HopToItHomebrew
That grist looks NOTHING like an Urquell. It's one of my fav styles and I've done tons of research. I have no idea how the judges didn't taste all of this:

7.0 0.50 lbs. Rye Malt
7.0 0.50 lbs. Aromatic Malt
5.3 0.38 lbs. Wheat - BestMalz
3.5 0.25 lbs. Flaked Oats

Just my 2c

Edit to add:

the hops are also way off; I'd stick with all Saaz.
I definitely felt this way too when first glancing at the recipe.

Though it's important to note that there are many paths to the same destination, and when making a beer on a different system (ESPECIALLY when making a homebrew version of a commercial beer), the inputs (eg ingredients, process) often need to be different from the original in order to achieve an identical or near-identical output. And ultimately, the output is the only thing that really matters,so in any case, I think it's worth a shot if the judges really thought so highly of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HopToItHomebrew
Also, I'd do myself the favor of doing a single infusion mash at 155 which should give the body you want without all the decoction.
Now this is where any inclination to agree with you goes out the window. Have you actually even had Pilsner Urquell?? It's a great beer in large part due the fact that it's so crisp and refreshing. Attempting to give it more body by bumping up the sacc-rest temp would be criminal!

Quote:
Originally Posted by pjj2ba
155 F is way too high for a single infusion pilsner. What you gain in body, you loose in crispness.
^This times a thousand!

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRems
I tasted it, it was better than mine and I did a much more traditional recipe. Don't knock it till you try it.
Tasting "better" is one thing, but did you find it tasted authentic? I'm not so much concerned with brewing "better" beer if I go ahead with this recipe - my goal would be to reproduce Urquell as closely as possible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yooper
I think I"ll try this one this fall, instead of my traditional BoPils. I think it'll be fun, although I might decoct anyway to step mash instead of ramping. Thanks!
Really? The grain bill looks odd but, as the OP said, it was done to emulate the decoction mash without actually having to perform one, and as somebody who prefers to get a decoction profile by tweaking the grain bill instead, I can definitely see it.

With that in mind, I think doing a decoction mash ON TOP of this grain bill would be a bit much, and would push the beer further away from being an identical clone. Obviously this isn't exactly your first batch, and if a more intense decoction profile is what you want, then by all means, go for it! But if you're trying to brew as authentic a clone as possible and insist on decoction mashing anyway, you'd very likely do best to choose a recipe with a simpler, more conventional grain bill.

You probably know all that already Yoop and I don't want to insult you by implying otherwise. But if nothing else, hopefully the explanation I just gave will allow other brewers thinking of decoction mashing this to make a more informed decision.
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Old 07-29-2012, 02:09 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emjay View Post
Really? The grain bill looks odd but, as the OP said, it was done to emulate the decoction mash without actually having to perform one, and as somebody who prefers to get a decoction profile by tweaking the grain bill instead, I can definitely see it.

With that in mind, I think doing a decoction mash ON TOP of this grain bill would be a bit much, and would push the beer further away from being an identical clone. Obviously this isn't exactly your first batch, and if a more intense decoction profile is what you want, then by all means, go for it! But if you're trying to brew as authentic a clone as possible and insist on decoction mashing anyway, you'd very likely do best to choose a recipe with a simpler, more conventional grain bill.

You probably know all that already Yoop and I don't want to insult you by implying otherwise. But if nothing else, hopefully the explanation I just gave will allow other brewers thinking of decoction mashing this to make a more informed decision.
Good points! I actually don't want to "clone" PU, but I usually make one BoPils a year. I like the looks of it, and may or may not decoct. My usual BoPils recipe is 100% pilsner malt, with a tiny bit of carapils, and all saaz hops. It's time for something different, but not too different! I could go with a German pilsner, of course, but I think this may be the way to go for me.

My HLT element is 4500w and I"m not sure how well it would ramp in enough time to go from the protein rest to the saccrification rest (I'm not worried about the second saccrification rest or mash out since it would be after conversion)- I'm more afraid that I'd be too long at protein rest temps. A decoction would allow me to better control that, I think, since I have more experience with step mashing via decoction than ramping. I hope that makes sense!
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Old 07-29-2012, 03:28 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emjay View Post

Tasting "better" is one thing, but did you find it tasted authentic? I'm not so much concerned with brewing "better" beer if I go ahead with this recipe - my goal would be to reproduce Urquell as closely as possible.
Sorry, by better I meant closer to PU. I did a step mash with my electric system and did 2 small decoctions. I only used pils and a little aromatic to correct color. But mine still ended up lighter in color and not nearly as malty. To get the ibus correct I used 4 oz of saaz and could detect a slightly grassy flavor. I think the bittering hop substitution is a good choice.
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Old 07-30-2012, 03:42 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emjay View Post
I definitely felt this way too when first glancing at the recipe.

Though it's important to note that there are many paths to the same destination, and when making a beer on a different system (ESPECIALLY when making a homebrew version of a commercial beer), the inputs (eg ingredients, process) often need to be different from the original in order to achieve an identical or near-identical output. And ultimately, the output is the only thing that really matters,so in any case, I think it's worth a shot if the judges really thought so highly of it.
This is spot on. If I had access to the same malt, and their brewery, then I would use their recipe and brew it the way they do. I however, have access to none of that.

Just a reminder, when I first created this recipe, my intent was not to make an exact clone of PU, or at least to clone the PU that I was used to (the rules last year were a little vague). I was lucky in that my choices for "adulteration" made it taste more like what the Europeans were used to.

To critique my own recipe (in terms of perfecting the clone), it is too "hot" (5% ABV). I need to reduce the base malt a bit, and probably also the aromatic malt, but not to the same degree. My beer was a little bit "sweeter/richer". Color and bitterness were spot on. My foam is better . I could drop the oatmeal, but I just love a thick long lasting head on a beer

Now one thing I always wonder about my set up is that while I don't use a decoction, I do use direct heating, and am subjecting the mash to ~ 25 min. total of heat at the bottom of the mash (minimal stirring). I'm thinking that I'm getting some Maillard reactions occurring this way - but not what I would get with a decoction
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On Tap: Ger. Pils, OKZ (std Amer. lager), CZ Pils, Maibock,
Kegged and Aging/Lagering:CAP, CAP II, Wheat lager, Imperial Pilsner, Ger. Pils, OKZ (std Amer. lager), OKZ II (for base malt comparison), light beer - yes, light beer, Belgian IPA, IPA,
Secondary:
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Brewing soon: Saison
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