Yet another 120V Ekeggle idea..

I was thinking... I have a beautiful Brew Kettle (1barrel sanke conversion) but I now live in a tiny apartment (thanks to the divorce) and I don't have anywhere to put my Kettle to brew some beautiful AG beer... so what about.... with a paint can (saw this somewhere on the web) create a HERMS then for me brew pot, create a vessel with two heating elements, I believe the standard element would be a 2kw element (110v) totalling 4kw potential (yes, yes... different circuits in my house etc. etc. put on the tin foil hat and dance on one leg... i know i know...) fill it with water and create a BIGGER heat exchanger in my kettle where i would circulate this (hopefully) 220-240 Degree water (march 809 is rated to 250) and HOPEFULLY bring the wort to a nice roiling boil... any ideas? Have I confused anyone? Pictures to follow...
Thanks!

There was something on here a while back where somebody used a pressure cooker, and put oil in it, then ran the water through that, and i think the temps got up significantly higher, and it would probably be easier to get a boil doing that...

Else, i would invest in an 8 gallon brew pot, some heat sticks, and resort to stove brewing...

but whatever you do, never go back to extract...

I have no idea what you just said.

ok so lets forget about the mashing process and concentrate on the kettle....

you build a box that will hold approximately 3 gallons of water with an "in" side and an "outside" with the pump on the "in side" (therefore pulling water through the system) then you have the "outside" pumping heated water (presumably 240degress) through a heat exchanger inside my brewpot (15 gallon kettle) with enough surface area to come in contact with a majority of the wort. then back through the pump, into the "in" side of the box containing the elements and back through again... i mean you can cool from 220 to approx 80 degree with cold water using a IC why can't you do the same with heat (i know it will take longer to heat but seriously...)

It is not efficient. You will expend more energy than and time than would be practical, but it would probably work. Why not just put the element right in the wort? S.

because i don't want to corrupt a perfectly "working" kettle... this is only temp and i would only use it while i don't have a deck/backyard to work in... i would need a few heat sticks and you would still need to heat the mash and you would still have to make sure you didn't kill the boil (start burning stuff into "da" wort...

So you are planing to mash and boil in the same kettle? If this is your plan, than go steam. On the whole "corrupt" thing, you are a home brewer. It is now in your nature to invent **** and by so doing "corrupt" a few good items for the cause. Just trust me on this one. LOL Good luck with your idea. It can not hurt to try. S.

uhoh... perhaps I had one too many brew last night while i was trying to respond to the last question i really just don't want to put any holes in my kettle... I haven't seen enough evidence that 110 with 2 coils would be enough to get a good boil. no i'm not planning on mashing in the same kettle the mash would be in a 10 gallon igloo. I agree it would be relatively inefficient but... it would be an opportunity to continue AG brewing...

Well I do boil with electric to the tune of 10 gallon batches, I use one element that is 5500 watts and I do power it 220V. in this I get to boil in just over 25 minutes. 10 minutes better than my propane set up. Remember, you do not start out at 60 degrees, but rather 130 to 150 degrees after the mash is lautered. s

I boil electric to. 3800W 220V directly in the wort. Much faster and cheaper than propane.

On paper i'm thinking two 5.5KW to 6KW elements on 240 volt for heating then within a couple degrees of boil point switch over to one element PID controlled. Elements in a seperate chamber under the boil pot not in the direct wort but in a glycol or anti-freeze solution. Propane's a PITA besides the crazy asking price and bottles going empty, NG is available within 5' but also not what I want to heat with. Bottom line i'm a hate gas person just me.

Got lucky my bier driver yesterday gave me two more straight in great condition 15.5 gallon kegs a trade for a mixed 8 pack of heavy biers.

I only have one spare 70 amp 240 volt breaker to play with, at 80% by code this is 13,440 watts. With 12KW (two 6KW elements) in the heating chamber this only leaves 1,440 watts for the PID's, March pumps and any pretty lights on a control panel. Or two 4.5KW elements with 600 watts for the PID's, March pumps and control panel lights on a 50 amp breaker using 50 amp twistlocs. All this again at 80% of NEC code before adding a fractional hp HLT or MLT mixer motor if needed, only a very small additional added wattage.
Still in the dream stage. I like elecrtic heating just need the HP or watts to get the job done.

BrewBeemer said:

On paper i'm thinking two 5.5KW to 6KW elements on 240 volt for heating then within a couple degrees of boil point switch over to one element PID controlled. Elements in a seperate chamber under the boil pot not in the direct wort but in a glycol or anti-freeze solution. Propane's a PITA besides the crazy asking price and bottles going empty, NG is available within 5' but also not what I want to heat with. Bottom line i'm a hate gas person just me.

Got lucky my bier driver yesterday gave me two more straight in great condition 15.5 gallon kegs a trade for a mixed 8 pack of heavy biers.

I only have one spare 70 amp 240 volt breaker to play with, at 80% by code this is 13,440 watts. With 12KW (two 6KW elements) in the heating chamber this only leaves 1,440 watts for the PID's, March pumps and any pretty lights on a control panel. Or two 4.5KW elements with 600 watts for the PID and control lights on a 50 amp breaker with 50 amp twistlocs. All this again at 80% of NEC code before adding a fractional hp HLT or MLT mixer motor if needed.
Still in the dream stage. I like elecrtic heating just need the HP or watts to get the job done.

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I don't know the code off hand, but do remember that 80% only takes effect after so much time.

i'm so confused...

Most commonly available circuit breakers are rated to carry no more than 80% of their nominal (rating continuously) (3 hours or more)(NEC ART 100) 100%- rated circuit breakers are manufactured for and may carry 100% of their nominal rating continously.

Don't forget to derate the wires current capacity due to the ambient temperature the wire is operating in (NEC 310.10) plus derating conductors current capacity due to the conductor fill rating (NEC 310.16).

unszwei,

You'll need 2 dedicated 20 Amp circuits to run 2 2kw elements, which may be hard to come by in an apartment.

Water boils at 212 deg F, so to get 240 deg water you will have to create a closed, pressurized system. This means you are talking about creating a mini boiler, or pressure vessel, which is very dangerous without the proper saftey devices (operating and safety highlimits, and pressure & temperature relief valve), and know-how.

If the apartment was built with in the last 10 years the kitchen is required to have two twenty amp circuits. This is just an FYI. It is a code thing since at least 1996.

Hey brewbeemer, it looks like you have plenty left over for the other goods. It is not like you will be using the pump while you boil, and the boil is under three hours so it is not considered a continuous load, so the 80% rule of the code does not apply. Not that I don't agree with you, because I am conservative, but I'm just saying, it can be done. And the PID and nifty controls draw what? On the high side an amp, or two. Unless you are including a sound system an a disco ball, you should be alright. LOL! S.

slnies; just throwing in the code limits and yes it's true one would not be running everything electrical even at the end with just the boil going on. PID, lights and March are about nothing on amp draw I just threw that in as total load. Every amp counts.
It's a lot better knowing you have the power to run a system and not be on the edge of tripping breakers in the middle of a brewing process. Frustration big time i've seen it many times with different cases like in a home shop garage. I want to build a fully electrictly heated system at the start and have have the HLT and MLT elements on until up to temp, a balance of HLT and MLT wattage vs the boil pots total wattage I can feed with my available amperage breaker. I haven't spent the time balancing different wattage heating elements thru out the system. I may run two the same wattage elements in the boil pot or one high the other a low wattage. All this does not apply to just a electric homebrewers heating system but in feeding welders, detatched garage work shops, compressors on and on. I was a 27 year I.B.E.W. union electrician and about seen it all. A back injury 6 years ago forced me into early retirement i'm a little rusty on code now not having to know new codes as they are added being almost flat on my back 24/7 these days. Hence a super slow dream brew build system in my future.

Put it another way it's like owning your first welder (big smiles at first) be it sitck, Mig orTig with what you can afford at the time. 90% of the time I have seen it where people will out grow their welders capacity over time rather fast then stepping up to more amperage or powerful unit.
Example a big amp welder will beat a under amped welder evertime just crank it down, a low amp welder at its maximum and still not hot enough thats "your screwed I wish I purchased a larger welder the first time" problem and it pops up all the time.
Done rambling, have a safe holiday everyone, time for suds and BBQ.

z987k; if you can heat the wort with 3.8KW @ 220 volts (240 in my world) without any possibility of scorching of the wort hats off to you with your homebrew set up.
I want to prevent any possibility of scourching the wort before it even begins to scorch while heating with two 6KW 240 volt heating elements hence a seperate heating chamber below the boil pot. I would rather build a system that can transfer up to 12KW of heat thru app 200 plus square inches of surface area in a seperate chamber of glycol or anti-freeze under a keg than off a heating element in direct contact with the wort. Maybe just my safe way of thinking without adding a built in future problem within a heating system.

BrewBeemer,
Don't be such a skeptic. I am boiling with a element direct in the wort, and no scorching. And trust me, I like to brew delicate light beers like koelsches, and the such. I have had no issue. It really is about surface area, and in elements that means low density. ENOUGH SAID. S.

So it sounds like i can actually cut up a kettle, weld'er up with fittings and put two 2kw elements running on 110v :-D

slnies said:

BrewBeemer,
Don't be such a skeptic. I am boiling with a element direct in the wort, and no scorching. And trust me, I like to brew delicate light beers like koelsches, and the such. I have had no issue. It really is about surface area, and in elements that means low density. ENOUGH SAID. S.

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slnies; i'm not trying to be a skeptic like you replied just weighing what I have read in the past on this matter not only this forum but other forums and weighing my options.
If its not a problem with direct heating even if one uses a Super Low Wattage Density element what's the reason for people running their 240 volt elements on 120 volt power then? There must be a reason I see as a problem that I wish not to encounter. Not to start a pissing contest slinies I respect your many replies on this forum besides from other members.

I like the full heating advantage BTU wise in heating with 240 vs 120 for a faster temperature rise besides being able to heat 10 to 15 plus gallons to a boil without waiting for hours. The other reason with a seperate chamber added under the kettles will prevent any possibilty of scorching happening at all.
More time, labor and materials like extra kegs and welding you bet hence my keg collecting crusade. Just added two more 15.5 AB kegs last friday to my collection.
Everyone has different ideas or twists on their brew building systems, I must be in that department be it different also. As long as the final results are great suds we all want out of our CUSTOM BUILT equipment.

Sorry BrewBeemer,
I did not intend to start a pissing match. The reason for under powering an element as far as I can tell in my set up, is that I can not pump enough wort through the manifold to keep the wort from boiling and killing the enzymatic action going on in the mash tun. I have powered my manifold 220 and it works really fast, but the grain bed restricts the speed of the flow enough, that the element on 220 starts, boiling the wort. It amazingly did not burn the wort or start caramelizing it. A surprise to even myself, no darkening, no nothing, interesting ehh. Anyway, I am not trying to change your mind, I just think you should know what the thing actually works like. I think your idea has promise, but do it because you think it is a great idea, and an original that you came up with. Because that is the only reason you need to build it. It will be the Wersbo of brew rigs. kind of cool actually. S.

This doesn't really follow the point of this thread but I thought I'd share it anyways as I had never seen it before. It's pricy, but seems like it might be a good solution.

BURNERS AND ELECTRIC POT HEATERS @ Williams Brewing

John Beere said:

This doesn't really follow the point of this thread but I thought I'd share it anyways as I had never seen it before. It's pricy, but seems like it might be a good solution.

BURNERS AND ELECTRIC POT HEATERS @ Williams Brewing

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Nice call.:rockin:

slnies said:

Sorry BrewBeemer,
I did not intend to start a pissing match. The reason for under powering an element as far as I can tell in my set up, is that I can not pump enough wort through the manifold to keep the wort from boiling and killing the enzymatic action going on in the mash tun. I have powered my manifold 220 and it works really fast, but the grain bed restricts the speed of the flow enough, that the element on 220 starts, boiling the wort. It amazingly did not burn the wort or start caramelizing it. A surprise to even myself, no darkening, no nothing, interesting ehh. Anyway, I am not trying to change your mind, I just think you should know what the thing actually works like. I think your idea has promise, but do it because you think it is a great idea, and an original that you came up with. Because that is the only reason you need to build it. It will be the Wersbo of brew rigs. kind of cool actually. S.

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No worries brother wireman, besides i'm thick skinned from years of the construction trade and being a stubborn thick headed German.
Suds all around.

William's Brewing is around 5-6 miles away from me, I walked in after doing business across the street.
Oops no "Walk Ins" was told mail order only but got a quick tour inside the building. Wasn't impressed just a small warehouse that was 80% empty with a lot of bare cement floof showing. I believe they order what you ordered then ship.
Just of Marina Blvd is Brewmasters with the front showroom floor filled besides grains in the back with not only bier but wine equipment and supplies. Both places in San Leandro Calif. within 5 miles from me.

Sad but I believe Mike at B.R.E.W. in Hayward off American Av. about 11 miles from me may have closed his doors. He also being a union electrician by day plus working the brew store weekends I believe was too much of a load and not enough hours open besides his family needs.
Mike is a great person to know, spent the day on a AG brew there with great full mugs of great AG samples.

BrewBeemer said:

William's Brewing is around 5-6 miles away from me, I walked in after doing business across the street.
Oops no "Walk Ins" was told mail order only but got a quick tour inside the building.

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Yeah, They used to have an option to pick up at the warehouse but they got rid of it, which is why I stopped ordering from them, the shipping $$ for a 5 mile drive was ridiculous, so I just order from Austin Homebrew now, no tax and flat rate shipping.

BrewBeemer said:

Sad but I believe Mike at B.R.E.W. in Hayward off American Av. about 11 miles from me may have closed his doors. He also being a union electrician by day plus working the brew store weekends I believe was too much of a load and not enough hours open besides his family needs.
Mike is a great person to know, spent the day on a AG brew there with great full mugs of great AG samples.

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Actually, I think the reason Mike closed shop is that they lost the lease. They're were thinking about opening at another location after a year or so. Hopefully they will. I do think Mike's a great guy, I learned most of my brewing from him. The last time I was there they had told me they wanted to start a brew club, but I haven't heard from they, I'll have to send him an email and find out...

So nobody has pointed out that using a paint can as a steam boiler (240 degree water == pressurized == steam explosion when it ruptures) might be a bad idea...

Consider it pointed out, now. Homebrew steam without appropriate training and safety measures is a nasty, unpleasant way to die. If you manage not to die, you'll end up in court when you get out of the hospital. Go looking for an electric stem kettle of appropriate size if you want to do something like this. Or look for a different place to live so that you can use your other setup.

slnies said:

Well I do boil with electric to the tune of 10 gallon batches, I use one element that is 5500 watts and I do power it 220V. in this I get to boil in just over 25 minutes. 10 minutes better than my propane set up. Remember, you do not start out at 60 degrees, but rather 130 to 150 degrees after the mash is lautered. s

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I am wanting to go electric...but I haven't decided on the best way to do so. Do you mind posting on your setup??? It would be greatly appreciated.

Gregredic said:

I am wanting to go electric...but I haven't decided on the best way to do so. Do you mind posting on your setup??? It would be greatly appreciated.

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+1 , how about some sources for those elements?

lrr81765 said:

+1 , how about some sources for those elements?

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Just go to Lowe's or Home Depot. I got a 5500w element at Home Depot for ~$17 in the water heater isle.

Brewing Clamper said:

Just go to Lowe's or Home Depot. I got a 5500w element at Home Depot for ~$17 in the water heater isle.

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I really want to create something to defuse the heat from an electric heating element. I would love to figure out a way to build a plate shaped tank that has a water heater element in it that I can just sit my pot on top of. The tank would have to be filled with some sort of liquid that wouldn't burn up or make the tank explode. Anyone seen anything like this...or even understand where I am going with this?