using liquid co2 to cool beer

jonp9576 · Sep 16, 2010

so i just moved a few months ago and i just brewed my first batch at the new house. wow, cooling the wort took forever. my tap water at my old house came out around 55* the tap water at my new house is in the upper 70s.

would there be a negative effect to the beer if i ran liquid co2 through the chiller to drop my temp.

the real question i am asking is if some of the beer were to freeze to the chiller then melt off, would this have a bad effect on the beer.

co2 costs me almost nothing so i am not worried about the price, just interested in an experiment.

i guess i'll actually look into circulating ice cold water with a pump if this doesnt work out.

camiller · Sep 16, 2010

jonp9576 said:
so i just moved a few months ago and i just brewed my first batch at the new house. wow, cooling the wort took forever. my tap water at my old house came out around 55* the tap water at my new house is in the upper 70s.

would there be a negative effect to the beer if i ran liquid co2 through the chiller to drop my temp.

the real question i am asking is if some of the beer were to freeze to the chiller then melt off, would this have a bad effect on the beer.

co2 costs me almost nothing so i am not worried about the price, just interested in an experiment.

i guess i'll actually look into circulating ice cold water with a pump if this doesnt work out.

If you managed to get liquid CO2 into your chiller far enough to get to where the hot wort is it might transition into gas faster than it could escape the other end. Do be careful.

TomSD · Sep 16, 2010

camiller said:
If you managed to get liquid CO2 into your chiller far enough to get to where the hot wort is it might transition into gas faster than it could escape the other end. Do be careful.

That would be my worry. Even if not you would have some serious out gassing out the other end. Pipe it somewhere well ventilated.

I would think ice bath and either a pre chiller or an immersion pump would be a better and safer bet.

brianj434 · Sep 16, 2010

If you have the capability at home to use liquid co2 to cool wort im sure you can come up with something that would be much safer and more manageable.

klyph · Sep 16, 2010

I believe soft copper tubing can withstand around 800 psi, so if one end of an immersion chiller is hooked to an inverted CO2 tank and the other end is open to atmosphere, I don't see how it would be dangerous. Other than the cost of CO2, it sounds like a great idea to me. I bet you could get down to pitching temps in just a few minutes. That is, if you didn't pass out from the oxygen being displaced from the brew area.

jonp9576 · Sep 16, 2010

i do have some of these laying around https://morebeer.com/view_product/16154

i sm sire it would be better if i did something with this instead of wasting all the co2.

wow, i didnt realize how much these things cost after looking them up online. i might sell some.

jonp9576 · Sep 16, 2010

i am definately going to try it once with the co2 to see how it works

camiller · Sep 16, 2010

klyph said:
I believe soft copper tubing can withstand around 800 psi, ...

at 100 F the pressure of co in the tank would be approaching 2000psi. Having it go from liquid to gas rapidly without adequate means for the rapidly expanding gas to move away will be ... interesting. If the copper doesn't rupture my prediction would be that it would jet out of the open end of the chiller at a high enough rate to upend the kettle.

If you feel you must try this, try it on a small scale first and take safety precautions.

This is the chart for vapor pressure inside a closed co2 cylinder vs. temperature:

http://www.warpig.com/paintball/technical/gasses/co2pv.gif

prosper · Sep 16, 2010

yeah, CO2 is only at 800psi at room temp. Add liquid gas to a chiller at 212F, and it would be much, MUCH higher

david_42 · Sep 16, 2010

I would be concerned that the transitioning CO2 would build up too much pressure in the cooler. Gas has inertia and there is a limit to how fast it can move. If you've played around with a carbide cannon, you'd understand the possible consiquences. I've seen films of CO2 excaping a broken valve and propelling a #100 tank through the bulkhead of a ship compartment.

Also the wort would freeze onto the tubing and restrict heat transfer rather quickly.

klyph · Sep 16, 2010

camiller said:
at 100 F the pressure of co in the tank would be approaching 2000psi. Having it go from liquid to gas rapidly without adequate means for the rapidly expanding gas to move away will be ... interesting. If the copper doesn't rupture my prediction would be that it would jet out of the open end of the chiller at a high enough rate to upend the kettle.

Well, we're not saying to open the valve wide open during this. If you slowly release liquid CO2 into the coil at a rate that can be evacuated without over pressurizing, it should work just fine. That is after all, how refrigeration systems work, minus the pump to re-pressurize.

jonp9576 · Sep 16, 2010

thats what i was thinking. i am not going full pressure, just a real small amount to even see if it works.

but i do see the wort freezing to it quickly like said and then its not as effective

Merg · Sep 17, 2010

I've got nothing to add aside from: my uncle lives in Blue Bell, and I grew up nearby in Chalfont. I love seeing the Buxmont area represented all over this forum. :mug:

And good luck, man; be careful.

camiller · Sep 17, 2010

klyph said:
Well, we're not saying to open the valve wide open during this. If you slowly release liquid CO2 into the coil at a rate that can be evacuated without over pressurizing, it should work just fine. That is after all, how refrigeration systems work, minus the pump to re-pressurize.

How long would a dorm fridge take to get a bucket of 212 degree wort down to pitching temp?

jonp9576 said:
thats what i was thinking. i am not going full pressure, just a real small amount to even see if it works.

but i do see the wort freezing to it quickly like said and then its not as effective

Then the thermal mass of the CO2 will be really small. If your opening the valve only a small amount it's (probably) going to be gas before it gets to the wort.

I don't want to discourage experimentation and would be happy to be proven wrong. Just exercise caution and let us know how it turns out. Start with a small sauce pan a quart of boiling water and a small coil of scrap copper. (and something to shield you from injury)

Catt22 · Sep 17, 2010

camiller said:
How long would a dorm fridge take to get a bucket of 212 degree wort down to pitching temp?

It would take a very long time to cool a bucket of near boiling wort down to pitching temp using a small dorm type fridge. Probably something like 10 or 12 hours. The CO2 ideas is interesting and would probably work, but I doubt it would work as well as a typical IC using tap water for cooling.

the_bird · Sep 17, 2010

klyph said:
I believe soft copper tubing can withstand around 800 psi, so if one end of an immersion chiller is hooked to an inverted CO2 tank and the other end is open to atmosphere, I don't see how it would be dangerous. Other than the cost of CO2, it sounds like a great idea to me. I bet you could get down to pitching temps in just a few minutes. That is, if you didn't pass out from the oxygen being displaced from the brew area.

I'd like to see some backup on that 800psi figure. I might buy that for a thick copper pipe, but I've seen that soft tubing split open enough times where I'd be surprised if it could handle that much without a rupture.

If you DO get a rupture, you're basically looking at having placed a pipe bomb inside five gallons of boiling-hot liquid. If it works, you're a genius; if it fails, a Darwin Award.

billvon · Sep 17, 2010

jonp9576 said:
would there be a negative effect to the beer if i ran liquid co2 through the chiller to drop my temp.

You may end up freezing the wort near the copper while the wort in the center remains warm.

Recommendation: Get a bucket and two coils of copper tubing. They can be relatively short. The two coils should not be touching but should be in very close proximity.

Fill bucket with water. Use CO2 to keep water around 32F (i.e. allow ice to form on the CO2 coils) then circulate wort through the other coil. The heat of fusion of the ice should keep temperatures from dropping much below 32F unless you freeze the whole bucket.

Adjust flow rate to achieve desired temperature drop.

klyph · Sep 17, 2010

the_bird said:
I'd like to see some backup on that 800psi figure. I might buy that for a thick copper pipe, but I've seen that soft tubing split open enough times where I'd be surprised if it could handle that much without a rupture.

If you DO get a rupture, you're basically looking at having placed a pipe bomb inside five gallons of boiling-hot liquid. If it works, you're a genius; if it fails, a Darwin Award.

http://www.airproducts.com/Products/fastfacts/charts_n_tables/pressurerating/index.asp

Copper Tube

Soft Copper Tube (–325°F to +100°F)

Seamless, not corroded
ASTM B68, C12200
OD(inches) Nom. Wall Min.Wall Max psi
.125 .020 .0170 1831.2
.125 .025 .0220 2458.1
.125 .028 .0250 2857.1
.125 .030 .0270 3133.4
.125 .032 .0290 3418.4
.25 .03 .0275 1447.3
.25 .032 .0295 1563.6
.25 .035 .0320 1711.2
.25 .049 .0460 2589.1
.25 .065 .0615 3675.2
.375 .032 .0295 1007.4
.375 .035 .0320 1099
.375 .042 .0390 1361.2
.375 .049 .0460 1632.1
.375 .065 .0615 2265.1

http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs...on.endeca.EndecaDataBean@eb8e82a&ddkey=Search

Home depot specs it at 613 psi for whatever that's worth.

Hard to find a definitive answer, my google-fu is failing me.

Shockerengr · Sep 18, 2010

If you're gonna try it, I'd suggest starting with water to knock the temp down to close to 100F or so first...that should go relatively quickly, even with 70F water, and it'll keep you CO2 usage down. Even with getting CO2 cheap, it'll still take quite a bit. Compressed bottled CO2 will have more energy available than dry ice, but just because something gets cold, doesn't mean it has a lot of capacity to chill.

using liquid co2 to cool beer

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