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Old 01-28-2010, 03:49 PM   #1
goatchze
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Default RIMS Wiring...comments?

So I'm thinking of putting together the wiring for my RIMS system in the following way. One element will be my RIMS tube, the other my eKeggle.

The purpose is:

1. To be able to operate the two elements independently
2. To have the PID also work as my "ON" indicator. i.e. if the PID is on, the element is on
3. Be able to switch between 120/240V on the elements.
4. The PID conrtroller will only be used during 120V mode. i.e. during start up the temperature won't be close to the set point and I'll be running 240V manual. Then, when it gets close to the set point I'll flip to 120V and let the controller take over.

I'll have the 4th ground wire but the grounds aren't shown in the diagram.

Any advice? Comments? Experience?

P.S. I've also considered adding another relay on the RIMS tube so that it can only be on if the pump is on...

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Old 01-28-2010, 05:41 PM   #2
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Im confused bud. It looks like you are trying to switch the Neutral through the SSR. The element DPST switch needs to be engaged for anything to work. It is pretty tough to follow tbh.
Is that a thermal overload switch before the element or is it the element?

If it were me I would leave the temp controller on all the time, otherwise there is no indication the system is powered up. With some interposing contactors you can switch between the 120/240 power and use the PID to control it in manual @240 OR just have the element on @240.

Unless you are trying to constrain your current usage do to service limitations, there really is no reason to run the RIMS @120. Same goes for the BK.

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Old 01-28-2010, 06:42 PM   #3
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Im confused bud. It looks like you are trying to switch the Neutral through the SSR. The element DPST switch needs to be engaged for anything to work. It is pretty tough to follow tbh.
Is that a thermal overload switch before the element or is it the element?

If it were me I would leave the temp controller on all the time, otherwise there is no indication the system is powered up. With some interposing contactors you can switch between the 120/240 power and use the PID to control it in manual @240 OR just have the element on @240.

Unless you are trying to constrain your current usage do to service limitations, there really is no reason to run the RIMS @120. Same goes for the BK.
For now, my MLT is a big IGLOO cooler, so I'm not expecting much heat loss. I'm concerned that the cycle time is going to be extremely short if the element runs at full power (as in less than 10% on). I figured that the lower wattage will give me a little better control once I reach my target T.

That shape is the element, not a thermal overload switch. It's what Visio had labeled as a 'heating element'.

I am trying to open/close the neutral with the SSR to open/close the 120V cicuit. Originally I was going to try to run a DPST SSR for the two hot legs and just have the toggle switch to go between the neutral and one hot leg (to switch from 120V/240V) but I realized that by doing so, I wouldn't be able to bypass the SSR during start up. The DPST switch I have there is to turn on/cut off power whether I'm in 120V or 240V mode.



Maybe I'm overthinking this...
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Old 01-28-2010, 07:05 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goatchze View Post
I am trying to open/close the neutral with the SSR to open/close the 120V circuit. Originally I was going to try to run a DPST SSR for the two hot legs and just have the toggle switch to go between the neutral and one hot leg (to switch from 120V/240V) but I realized that by doing so, I wouldn't be able to bypass the SSR during start up. The DPST switch I have there is to turn on/cut off power whether I'm in 120V or 240V mode.



Maybe I'm overthinking this...
Yeah, I don't know if the SSR will work correctly with the load on the supply side, otherwise I think it will leak current. In practice it should always be between the load and supply side any ways.

Just being honest, you are over thinking it. I had a similar idea to switch between 120 and 240 but after some experience I have found that process wise, there is no reason. As I said earlier, the Amp capacity of your service would be the only legitimate reason to switch between 120 and 240.

The principal in it's simplest form is you need x Watts per second input to maintain temps from n Watts per second of heat loss. So x W/S = n W/S.

The period at which those Watts are introduced to the system doesn't matter as long as they are the same. 4500W for .1 Sec is the same as 1125W for .4 Sec, 450W/S.

Using 240 for the whole RIMS process is nice too. You can do step mashes 4x faster than with the same element at 120v. You can also set it to mash out temps and get there super quick. Then sparge

With the cooler, I don't think you are going to loose much heat. You will loose more than usual because of the volume being pushed through the plumbing.

If you stick with 240, it will be very simple, less parts, and you'll be much happier.
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Old 01-28-2010, 07:28 PM   #5
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Yeah, I don't know if the SSR will work correctly with the load on the supply side, otherwise I think it will leak current. In practice it should always be between the load and supply side any ways.

Just being honest, you are over thinking it. I had a similar idea to switch between 120 and 240 but after some experience I have found that process wise, there is no reason. As I said earlier, the Amp capacity of your service would be the only legitimate reason to switch between 120 and 240.

The principal in it's simplest form is you need x Watts per second input to maintain temps from n Watts per second of heat loss. So x W/S = n W/S.

The period at which those Watts are introduced to the system doesn't matter as long as they are the same. 4500W for .1 Sec is the same as 1125W for .4 Sec, 450W/S.

Using 240 for the whole RIMS process is nice too. You can do step mashes 4x faster than with the same element at 120v. You can also set it to mash out temps and get there super quick. Then sparge

With the cooler, I don't think you are going to loose much heat. You will loose more than usual because of the volume being pushed through the plumbing.

If you stick with 240, it will be very simple, less parts, and you'll be much happier.
Well, you've got me convinced Coderage. I get what you're saying about the energy input into the system, my worry was that with 240V my cycle time would be so short that I would loose good control of the system. (Most controllers like >10% on) Switching to 120V would quadruple the amount of "on" time.

But it sounds like you're not having any such issues yourself.


By the way, in your system, what would you guess as your wort circulation rate?

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Old 01-28-2010, 07:52 PM   #6
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If the less than 10% is ineffective, it will start cooling anyways calling for a longer output. Since it is a resistive load the output should be linear minus the ramp time from the SSR switching. I don't know about the other PIDs folks are using for brewing but the Auber t variable sets the 100% duty cycle period in seconds. t=0 is $100 @.5s which I use.
If you use the 2 sec you'll get .2sec of on time at 10%. t=0 would be 50ms @ 10%. Compare that to the rise time for the SSR to see if it is a usable time period. Either way, it will self correct.

If it doesn't get stuck (happened once and SUCKED. Got 5lbs of rice hulls on hand just in case now) I would say somewhere around .5 to 1 GPMish. I should be able to go faster than that now that I am running 4500W. Any faster at 1125W I would loose heat through the plumbing faster than the element could put it in.

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Old 01-28-2010, 07:59 PM   #7
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One thing I would like to add, and it is totally off topic. I have yet to see any thermal stratification running RIMS. Temps seem to be very consistent through out the mash. One of these days I am going to figure out how to map it

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Old 01-28-2010, 08:23 PM   #8
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One thing I would like to add, and it is totally off topic. I have yet to see any thermal stratification running RIMS. Temps seem to be very consistent through out the mash. One of these days I am going to figure out how to map it
Yeah, I'm curiuos about it too. I plan to try and measure the temperature profile in the MLT. Maybe at 3 points.

I also plan to measure the temperature upstream of the RIMS tube.
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Old 02-16-2011, 12:42 PM   #9
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Hey guys, quick question. I'm pretty lost as I just start to plan my RIMS tube. Anyway, I have a 240 VAC power supply. This means I need a element rated 240 right? The LD ones are long, haha my RIMS will be 16+in long (which may not pose too much of a problem). What are my options here? Thanks for answering my stupid questions.

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