Removing a Load Bearing Wall

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kosmokramer

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This isnt 100% brewing related but like all of us with a swmbo it is a give and take situation. I am 90% done building my eherms and the swimbo wants a project for her next.

We decided a nice breakfast bar would do the trick. I have an older house (1923) so my walls are plaster. I skinned the walls but it is load bearing and dont know how to put the beam in the attic so i can remove the rafter. Any contractors in the so cal area that can help? or anyone out there can walk me through it?
 
I'm not in Ca, but I am a contractor and can probably help you out. You can PM me your email address if you want, and we can sort this out with pics and drawings.
 
Now this is what I call brewers of the world unite. We can all help each other even if it's not about beer :mug:
 
This isnt 100% brewing related but like all of us with a swmbo it is a give and take situation. I am 90% done building my eherms and the swimbo wants a project for her next.

We decided a nice breakfast bar would do the trick. I have an older house (1923) so my walls are plaster. I skinned the walls but it is load bearing and dont know how to put the beam in the attic so i can remove the rafter. Any contractors in the so cal area that can help? or anyone out there can walk me through it?

The basic process would be to size the beam, shore up the sides of the bearing wall with temporary walls, demo the wall, plumb cut the ceiling joists back to make room for the new flush beam, install joist hangers on each side, open up the walls at the bearing ends and block down to foundation. Slap up some dry wall and go have a beer.

That said, as much as I love DIY you might want to spring for a real carpenter and maybe an architect. Wood framing is pretty forgiving but making structural changes is pro territory.
 
The basic process would be to size the beam, shore up the sides of the bearing wall with temporary walls, demo the wall, plumb cut the ceiling joists back to make room for the new flush beam, install joist hangers on each side, open up the walls at the bearing ends and block down to foundation. Slap up some dry wall and go have a beer.

That said, as much as I love DIY you might want to spring for a real carpenter and maybe an architect. Wood framing is pretty forgiving but making structural changes is pro territory.

+1 I DIY but load bearing is one place, along with major plumbing and electrical, where I would leave it to the professionals.

Maybe you can get someone who will guide you through the work with close supervision.
 
Wow! Thanks for all the quick responses guys. Acidrain, ill shoot u a pm in a little bit. I just got to work. I had a contractor come check it out an he told me seven hundred jost for the header. No demo or patchwork. Seems like a lot to me. Am i wrong?
 
I design & engineer joists, beams, metal plated trusses for a living. Been doing it for about 8 yrs now. I'm not a registered engineer, not too many designers are...

but I have knowledge.

If a load bearing wall is removed yes a beam will need to go into place to take the load coming down from the roof to spread the loads into the foundation.

Now if you remove a load bearing wall & replace it with a header, you create 2 point loads on the foundation instead of 1 uniformed load (from the wall removed). If these point loads do not exceed the capacity of the foundation you can get away with just placing the header/beam in & posting down to the floor.

But if these point loads DO exceed the cap of the concrete in the foundation, it should be dug out & footings put in place at the post point loads.

need drawings I can do some up, just need dimensions of the roof/walls & your location for typical loading/bldg codes used



edit: just reread the OP... 1920's house I'm willing to bet the concrete has no bldg code specs in design used today. LoL

also, is this load bearing wall over concrete or over a basement & sitting on a wood floor?

Big difference here... you would have to beef up below also since you are converting a uniformed load form above to 2 point loads.
 
Wow! Thanks for all the quick responses guys. Acidrain, ill shoot u a pm in a little bit. I just got to work. I had a contractor come check it out an he told me seven hundred jost for the header. No demo or patchwork. Seems like a lot to me. Am i wrong?

Sounds like a bargain if he's doing it right
 
I design & engineer joists, beams, metal plated trusses for a living. Been doing it for about 8 yrs now. I'm not a registered engineer, not too many designers are...

but I have knowledge.

If a load bearing wall is removed yes a beam will need to go into place to take the load coming down from the roof to spread the loads into the foundation.

Now if you remove a load bearing wall & replace it with a header, you create 2 point loads on the foundation instead of 1 uniformed load (from the wall removed). If these point loads do not exceed the capacity of the foundation you can get away with just placing the header/beam in & posting down to the floor.

But if these point loads DO exceed the cap of the concrete in the foundation, it should be dug out & footings put in place at the post point loads.

need drawings I can do some up, just need dimensions of the roof/walls & your location for typical loading/bldg codes used



edit: just reread the OP... 1920's house I'm willing to bet the concrete has no bldg code specs in design used today. LoL

also, is this load bearing wall over concrete or over a basement & sitting on a wood floor?

Big difference here... you would have to beef up below also since you are converting a uniformed load form above to 2 point loads.

The house is on a raised riverrock foundation (those damn rocks are everywhere here) the total span is 150 and i would like to remove 115. Here are a couple pic

2012-10-05_18-29-51_671.jpg


2012-10-10_20-04-06_3.jpg
 
Now this is what I call brewers of the world unite. We can all help each other even if it's not about beer :mug:

I think this is what i like most about breweing and the brewing community, people from so many walks of life have this common interest and we all understand that we have to keep swmbo happy to keep forking out the cash on brewing toys...lol

Thanks again for everybodys input
 
If you had a quote of $700 to install the header, posts on each side there as well as removal of the wall & shoring up the roof correctly until the new header is in place... that isn't too bad actually.

putting in the posts on each side, header on the posts wouldn't be the toughest thing...

shoring the roof without any damage or deflection that would crack your ceiling would be the biggest pain in a**
 
If you had a quote of $700 to install the header, posts on each side there as well as removal of the wall & shoring up the roof correctly until the new header is in place... that isn't too bad actually.

putting in the posts on each side, header on the posts wouldn't be the toughest thing...

shoring the roof without any damage or deflection that would crack your ceiling would be the biggest pain in a**

When i got that quote i wasnt educated enough to ask exactly how he would do it. I need to call him back but its a pain in the ass to get ahold of this guy. He has done remodel work for several friends and even my sister though.

I had another contractor come out and he said 1100 to shore both sides of the wall, run the 4x4 posts all the way through the floor to concrete pads in the crawl space below, and install a 4x8 header.
 
If you have a guy that will do that kind of work for $700, send him my way! :D

I'm in a similar situation, I have a load-bearing wall I want to remove to open up two rooms into a big family room. I had two contractors come out and look at it to give me an estimate, and then I never heard from either of them again!
 
If you have a guy that will do that kind of work for $700, send him my way! :D

I'm in a similar situation, I have a load-bearing wall I want to remove to open up two rooms into a big family room. I had two contractors come out and look at it to give me an estimate, and then I never heard from either of them again!

That guy does good work but jeez it is a pain in the ass to get ahold of him. I need to make sure he was going to put the posts kn the concrete pads if that is what was needed
 
Disclaimer: I am an licensed architect.

Since your dealing with a load bearing wall, I would bring in an engineer or an architect to analyze the situation and size a beam and supports that can properly handle the load. There are many good contractors out there but they haven't gone through the structural training that architects/engineers have and they don't have much experience sizing beams and determining loads.

A4J is right and you will have to have a engineer or architect provide signed and sealed plans in order to get a building permit.

I'd help you out if I was in CA, but I'm in Oregon so it would be a bit of a drive.
 
Disclaimer: I am an licensed architect.

Since your dealing with a load bearing wall, I would bring in an engineer or an architect to analyze the situation and size a beam and supports that can properly handle the load. There are many good contractors out there but they haven't gone through the structural training that architects/engineers have and they don't have much experience sizing beams and determining loads.

A4J is right and you will have to have a engineer or architect provide signed and sealed plans in order to get a building permit.

I'd help you out if I was in CA, but I'm in Oregon so it would be a bit of a drive.

Thanks for the advice. I read on a diy website if you call a truss company they can plug your numbers in and size a beam for you. Is that not good enough? Any way you can recommend whether i would need concrete pads and what size by dimensions and pictures?
 
This is a situation where you need to pay a professional.
There are a lot of variables that need to be considered and taking someones advice over the net isn't a good idea.
I'm not saying that you're not capable of doing some or all of the work, but from the questions you're asking, it's obvious you need a professional.
Some one with a license, insurance, history, workman's comp, etc.
Also, a building permit will give you the peace of mind that the job is done right.
Check out Angie's List if they are available in your area.
Bull
 
Thanks for the advice. I read on a diy website if you call a truss company they can plug your numbers in and size a beam for you. Is that not good enough? Any way you can recommend whether i would need concrete pads and what size by dimensions and pictures?

You can call a truss or engineered wood company and have them size a beam for you. They do provide engineering services and will provide stamped drawings that you can take to the building department. However, I don't know if they will do that for a renovation project due to liability, but it doesn't hurt to ask, and I do know that they will do it for new construction.

Personally I wouldn't feel comfortable giving you structural advice over the internet especially since you have an older house and they tend to have weird framing situations and it would really require me to inspect the situation in person.
 
This is a situation where you need to pay a professional.
There are a lot of variables that need to be considered and taking someones advice over the net isn't a good idea.
I'm not saying that you're not capable of doing some or all of the work, but from the questions you're asking, it's obvious you need a professional.
Some one with a license, insurance, history, workman's comp, etc.
Also, a building permit will give you the peace of mind that the job is done right.
Check out Angie's List if they are available in your area.
Bull

At this point i am resigned to the fact that i must pay somebody to do this for me but i want to get as much education as possible to make sure it is done right.
 
yes, a truss company (most of them) can & might size a beam for you. May not be free... I don't know about truss companies in Ca.

That's why I asked on the spans... I was referring to the spans of the roof trusses that bear on that wall. Knowing that & the material on the roof, I can estimate the loads a beam would be taking.

Now down through the posts... you said below you have a crawl space. Concrete pillars or more posts in the ground would need to be added to support the posts in the wall carrying the beam, carrying the trusses.

I have been in the truss industry for about 8-9 years & family has own/operated a company since 1960 something

woodframing-56967.jpg
 
That's why I asked on the spans... I was referring to the spans of the roof trusses that bear on that wall. Knowing that & the material on the roof, I can estimate the loads a beam would be taking.

Now down through the posts... you said below you have a crawl space. Concrete pillars or more posts in the ground would need to be added to support the posts in the wall carrying the beam, carrying the trusses.

I will measure tomarrow after work. I think it is difficult to measure because not far from that wall it goes into sort of a pyramid. here is a link to what im talking about. Im not sure if thats where the peak ends but it looks like the support to the left in the first couple seconds is about where the opening would start. also here is a redfin pic of the outside.
the roof is pretty heavy right now with 1 layer of wood shingles and 2 layers of asphalt composite shingles. A new roof is in the budget for next year
Is this what goes under the house?http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc...ord=concrete+block&storeId=10051#.UIdqyWed6So


click on this pic


streetview.jpg
 
So it looks like the wall in question is likely where all the rafters bear plus the overlay of the lower sloped shed roof. It might be a real pita to get your ceiling completely flush. They'll probably have to plumb cut the rafters and hang them in addition to the ceiling joists depending on how deep a member you need. Yuck.

I'd suggest a beam below the ceiling joists. You could span that all the way from foundation to foundation and not mess with a new pad in the crawl. You could open it up all the way or build a portion of wall back under the new beam.
 
You can build a cased opening if you don't want to go through the trouble or money of recessing a beam into the ceiling? Just wanted to throw an alternative out there. It may not look as clean but it cold save you a few bucks.
 
I'm hesitant to throw my 2cents in here, but... heck fools rush in (boy doesn't that discount this commentarty).

I agree with all the prior statement that you need at least a liscensed Eng/Arch to take a look at this and design something.

A truss maker or simlar should beable to design you a good header if you are looking to basically create a 115in by 82 inch openeing (doors are typically 82 -6'8" in height). I'd even consider using a couple of 2x8 nailed together, EXCEPT that in So Cal while you have very little snow load (I did work in the North East), you have a dang earthquake problem and that throws most of my experience out the window. (Hence my fools comment).

Since you are just looking for info, if this were a typical opening, (look at your doorframe) you'd have a header that rested on jack posts nailed to a king post. King post goes all the way floor to ceiling, jack is next to it and stops at the header. (left side of your picture). The larger the opening the thicker the header - in this case it is 2 2x4's, but for a larger opening, it could be 2x6, or up to even 2x12's or some structural material.

If you were doing this yourself, you'd look to support the inner room I think as you cut out the current wall, then put in your new structural support, if done right, you'd get no cracking, and certainly no collapse.

For your specific location, you are looking at load from the upper roof, lower roof and then quake stresses.
 
Thanks for all the comments, suggestions, and recomendations guys. It all helps... keep em coming
 
You can build a cased opening if you don't want to go through the trouble or money of recessing a beam into the ceiling? Just wanted to throw an alternative out there. It may not look as clean but it cold save you a few bucks.

My uncle actually recommended that but i know over time it would bother me ...lol

i have an in-law that is the engineer for the families structural steel company and he is supposed to come take a look this evening. Not sure structural sttel commercial building and residential housing experience is comparable but another opinion couldnt hurt
 
Another thing to keep in my (from a budgeting perspective) is that you might need to get a geotech (soil) report for those concrete piers (the home depot link).
 
Another thing to keep in my (from a budgeting perspective) is that you might need to get a geotech (soil) report for those concrete piers (the home depot link).

Jeez... i just wanted a simple butcherblock bfast counter...lol, guess i also just wanted a simple brew system when i started planning that as well and here i am, my buddy finished tigging my keggles last night and i should be testing manual modes in the bcs this weekend

Where is " the desert" A4J?
 
I am a union carpenter and what your talking about doing is not a big deal. If you put your beam above the ceiling it's a little more trouble but still not a major project. It's actually more of a pain to do foundation work for the posts than it is the rest of the project.

If the ceiling joists are shored up properly you shouldn't have a problem getting the two sides to line up as one. If there is a slight difference a good drywall finisher can feather that joint out and you'll never know it was there.

I would personally leave at least part of the beam below ceiling height and wrap it in a nice hardwood. But that's just my opinion.

No worries man. If was in Cali I'd give you a hand.
 
I am a union carpenter and what your talking about doing is not a big deal.

Thanks brother.... im a union steelworker. Im totally comfortable working with metal, wood not so much at all..i wouldnt even know how to wrap it in hardwood...lol
 
just guessing on pics here... so don't take this too serious and run out to buy something. But this might help when you are talking to a local on doing some work... don't let them run ya round for big $$

loading on top chord (dead load) =

Asphalt 4psf (over calc for 2 layers)
15lb felt .15spf
1/2 OSB (most likely) 1.43psf
Blown insl. .1psf
possible 2x6 chords 1.5psf
added 3psf for wood shingles over asphalt
misc mech. 1.5psf
1" plaster ceiling (another guess) 8psf

20psf standard top chord live load
10psf standard bottom chord

total loading: 49.68, lets say 50psf (guess)

Now, looks like a 20' span (another guess)... so 50psf x 20span = 1,000

1,000plf would be each truss' (or rafter's) load bearing at the walls, 2 bearing walls... one at each end & we break that down to 500# each bearing but @ 1' (because we dealt with per sq ft earlier)... they look to be 2' o.c. (on center spacing) - so 500plf x 2 to cover the 2' spacing... & we're back to 1,000# bearing load at each end of the truss/rafters

if a beam is taking 1,000# every 2' we can say it has 500# every 1' of length.

If the opening will need a 10' beam, then 10 x 500 = 5,000# of load from the beam. since it bears on 2 posts (or will be...) each post will see 2,500# of load from each end of the bm.

a 3 1/2" x 9.5" glulam bm should work, as will a 3-ply 1 3/4" x 7.25" Microllam LVL



A lot of ifs and buts though... this is why it might be best to have an engineer come look & do a jobsite check. Better to know for sure than guess. A bowed ceiling and cracking plaster later on would suck and cost an eff'n ton more.
 
just guessing on pics here... so don't take this too serious and run out to buy something. But this might help when you are talking to a local on doing some work... don't let them run ya round for big $$

loading on top chord (dead load) =

Asphalt 4psf (over calc for 2 layers)
15lb felt .15spf
1/2 OSB (most likely) 1.43psf
Blown insl. .1psf
possible 2x6 chords 1.5psf
added 3psf for wood shingles over asphalt
misc mech. 1.5psf
1" plaster ceiling (another guess) 8psf

20psf standard top chord live load
10psf standard bottom chord

total loading: 49.68, lets say 50psf (guess)

Now, looks like a 20' span (another guess)... so 50psf x 20span = 1,000

1,000plf would be each truss' (or rafter's) load bearing at the walls, 2 bearing walls... one at each end & we break that down to 500# each bearing but @ 1' (because we dealt with per sq ft earlier)... they look to be 2' o.c. (on center spacing) - so 500plf x 2 to cover the 2' spacing... & we're back to 1,000# bearing load at each end of the truss/rafters

if a beam is taking 1,000# every 2' we can say it has 500# every 1' of length.

If the opening will need a 10' beam, then 10 x 500 = 5,000# of load from the beam. since it bears on 2 posts (or will be...) each post will see 2,500# of load from each end of the bm.

a 3 1/2" x 9.5" glulam bm should work, as will a 3-ply 1 3/4" x 7.25" Microllam LVL



A lot of ifs and buts though... this is why it might be best to have an engineer come look & do a jobsite check. Better to know for sure than guess. A bowed ceiling and cracking plaster later on would suck and cost an eff'n ton more.



What is the pricing like on these beams? Its nice to have some calculations to referance. One contractor came out took a look and said 4x4 posts and 4x8 header...if he could fit it, 4x6if he couldnt. I have a truss company like a block away, do most sell to the public? Im working long days so im gone 6 to 6 and its hard to get over there. And i believe the studs are 16 on center. Not sure how much more that changes thigs. I will get a good measurement of the span when i get home today
 
One contractor came out took a look and said 4x4 posts and 4x8 header...if he could fit it, 4x6if he couldnt. I have a truss company like a block away, do most sell to the public? Im working long days so im gone 6 to 6 and its hard to get over there. And i believe the studs are 16 on center. Not sure how much more that changes thigs. I will get a good measurement of the span when i get home today


This is scarier than my guesstimations... "I'll just use a smaller size if I can't get that big'n over der ta work" LoL

price varies across the country

most truss companies don't sell beams to the public but a few will include them in truss packages

a lumber yard would be a better choice, maybe hit one up and ask if they have an engineer that could size a beam & what that would cost?

give one near you a call... & no, I don't mean Lowe's or Home Depot! :0
 
Thanks vegas... after calling a couple lumber yards i was put in touch with a manufacturer sales rep. He came up with the same sizing as you. He said a 3 1/2 x 7 1/4 would work but 3 1/2 x 91/2 ridgid lam will give me 30-40% over load. I called a local lumber yard and they said 67 bucks for 10 foot. Not to bad at all
 
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