There is an assumption that the brewtroller is open, so that mean's it's flexible. But that flexibility is presumed, and not that clearly available(IMHO). There is a generally accepted conflict in the world of open source vs. closed source. The open source world is open, but it generally doesn't always have a dictator(benevolent generally), closed source is...well...closed, but it has a clear leader. All of that is some what irrelevant if you are just buying it in either case and have no intention of actually writing any code(which is my general point if you want to stop reading now...). All that matters is that it does what you need it to do both today and tomorrow.
Sure if you can program you can write code for it, but that is not really the normal path for most folks, nor is it size that fits all. So in order to take advantage of that "openness" you need to go learn how to program the sanguino processor, and/or depend on the community to do something that you want. And before you can do that, if you take the cheap route you will have to do some soldering.
All this presumed slanderous talk about the brewtroller is not meant to be looking for flame wars from those out there who may feel responsible for defending the brewtroller or persisting on the path that the brewtroller is so flexible it can do anything. What I am after is to state, that I have reconfigured my brewery multiple times changed from HERMS, to infusion, used the bcs to control fermentation as a dual stage controller(simultaneously) while brewing.
And each time I have been able to (easily) configure my bcs to be useful in each case. While I won't say that you can do anything and everything with the bcs, I will say that it has very open way of thinking about your brewery, and can be setup to automate any configured brewery and is available for you to use it that way now with a minimal learning curve(compared to custom programming).
We are all individuals, so each has to find his own path, but the option of the BCS and the brewtroller both offer path's that are cheaper than simply buying RANCO's, PID's, and for me the bcs offer's the most directly and immediately available path to any form of automation from simply controlling a hlt. To a multiday slow fermentation temperature rise or drop for lagering or making belgian beers.
All the normal internet caveats apply, IMHO, YMMV, FWIW, AYBABTU
and with that, I say cheers, and go drink a beer already...I know I am.
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Yorg,
Here is the last shot of the system from last R&R trip Picasa Web Albums - Kevin - Panels. The touch screen panel is installed and needs OS upgrade before control program will function. After 15 years of brewing there were few challenges left so automation was the next challenge to implement on the one off steam injection Rims system I use. Gathering the hardware took a couple years, construction about 4 months, now the code for automatic operation is nearing completion after starting from minimal knowledge of Java. With evenings and weekend time to fill while away from home it has not been hard to devote time to learning and writing code for this system, a much larger task than first envisioned. With a background in piping and industrial instrumentation this has been an interesting challenge to see how much function can be fit into a 4' X 8' foot print suitable for a garage or shed installation.
Is there anywhere you talk about the design and dynamics of your steam injection approach. I too have tried steam (converted corny). My main issue was getting steam dispersed evenly so as not to heat up in spots and denature enzymes, but to achieve very quick ramps. Moved back to HERMS to regroup for another assault. All in the manifold design I reckon, or in Yuri's idea of injecting through the steam paddles - which I'd like to see a good design of.
How is inline injection better than just an element, doesn't it remove the main advantage of quick, enzyme-safe ramping?
The steam into liquid flow method allows you to input more heat into the liquid without exceeding the enzyme temperature limits. The latent heat of the steam does the heating when the steam condenses in the flowing wort. One of the things about steam into wort injection is the ability to raise the wort temperature to step temperature as wort flows through mixer and hold outlet temperature by controling the steam flow into mixer as inlet temperature rises. Screen steam diffuser in mixer controls steam bubble size and prevents the popping noise associated with direct mash injection, at high steam flow the mixer makes a sizzling sound, at low flow no noise.
I have no knowledge of the brewtroller. A casual look at the website doesn't really give me a clear indication of how it works, or what it requires (ssrs, etc). Looks like a hell of a lot of assembly to end up with something that requires you to deal with a tiny screen from a 1970's calculator....
The 460 on the other hand is simple to use and program and can easily monitor volume sensors as well.
I've been using it for a few months now and love it. Yes, you have to have your PC to brew, but I wouldn't brew without one anyway. I have my 460 integrated into my wireless network. This allows me not only to keep my laptop a safe distance from the kettles while brewing, I can monitor my fermentation temps from my couch.
Michael
Michael; your reply is the exact reason why I was following Adam from the start of his postings on the BCS-460 before it came to market and later purchasing his unit for my brewery.
I'm not blessed with scratch building or a computer person hence why I chose the BCS-460 as it fits my needs perfectly. I added up what it would cost long ago to build a PID system vs the BCS and it won out hands down with my thinking. There are many other ways I can add taps offs off it to control more than the 6 heating elements adding stir motors and pumps at the same time from just asking questions from Adam. Always quick and polite quick answers to my questions no matter how stupid they were to him but a question I had no clues to solve at times. Hell I was a industrial commercial electrician mainly into big power cable pulls and pipe bending not a computer geek. I'm not picking sides on which manufactured unit is the better one just which unit fits my needs best for my abilities. A proud owner of a BCS-460 unit for the next brewery build.
The steam into liquid flow method allows you to input more heat into the liquid without exceeding the enzyme temperature limits. The latent heat of the steam does the heating when the steam condenses in the flowing wort. One of the things about steam into wort injection is the ability to raise the wort temperature to step temperature as wort flows through mixer and hold outlet temperature by controling the steam flow into mixer as inlet temperature rises. Screen steam diffuser in mixer controls steam bubble size and prevents the popping noise associated with direct mash injection, at high steam flow the mixer makes a sizzling sound, at low flow no noise.
OK.
But how do you control the steam? I have a steam solenoid valve, but I expect it would be turning on and off at a high frequency with the temp probe so near, and wouldn't last long as well as being annoying, if the system could cope at all.
Or do you have an analog injection method? How do you manage it?
OK.
But how do you control the steam? I have a steam solenoid valve, but I expect it would be turning on and off at a high frequency with the temp probe so near, and wouldn't last long as well as being annoying, if the system could cope at all.
Or do you have an analog injection method? How do you manage it?
Cheers.
You could control the pid's sample rate to control how often it looked at the temperature, this would have the net affect of controlling the cycling of the steam valve. Alternatively or additionally you could to control the element in the steam production side as well, perhaps lowering the amount of watts being put into the steam generator as you got within a close range of the temperature or duty cycle the element so it was only on for 10/20/50%(whatever makes sense) of the time as well for less heat production if that was a problem while still having the ability to use it at 100% when you wanted a big temp rise fast.
On another side note, when talking about injecting the steam into the liquid, is this to say that you wouldn't be letting the steam enter the mash, just the recirculating wort? If so, it would seem to be negating the most interesting aspect of steam injection to me, which is the ability to apply heat without scorching risk DIRECTLY to the grain as well as the wort/pre-wort. This I have always felt was the inherent advantage of steam over a herms/rims system. Would hate to see that lost in the mash(mix).
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Both steam injection systems modulate gas flow to the boiler burner to control steam temperature, there is no valving between boiler outlet and mash tun. You could acquire a "Belimo brand" modulating ball valve and control the steam that way. If the contoller provides a voltage or current output use the voltage input type actuator, if it was on-off use a floating control actuator. The SS Belimo valves can be found on ebay from $10 - $100 by searching for "Belimo".
The advantage of the steam into wort method is the ability to control the wort temperature like the electric rims systems, but be able to apply the equivalent of 5-6KW of heat without scorching. The steam into mash method has been around for quite a while and I have helped build and test the method in 1995 with the same results that folks are finding now. Diffuculty in guessing correct amount of steam to hit temperature, frantic stirring to disperse heat applied to mash, noise from condensate flashing in dispersion manifold, and time spent waiting on pressure cooker pressure rebuild after steam use.
The advantage of the steam into wort method is the ability to control the wort temperature like the electric rims systems, but be able to apply the equivalent of 5-6KW of heat without scorching. The steam into mash method has been around for quite a while and I have helped build and test the method in 1995 with the same results that folks are finding now. Diffuculty in guessing correct amount of steam to hit temperature, frantic stirring to disperse heat applied to mash, noise from condensate flashing in dispersion manifold, and time spent waiting on pressure cooker pressure rebuild after steam use.
My plan is to apply 11KW electric heating without any scorching problem,
this is at 240 volts to the HLT, MLT and Boil keggle. Cutting back to 5.5KW to any two units at a time to maintain the temps when reached be it the HLT and MLT or the Boil keggle. No matter what the demand only 11KW of heating is used plus the pump and the BCS-460 with a couple LED control panel lights at any given time for the maximum wattage used just over 11KW.
With insulated keggles of 11KW heating or 37,559 BTU's of direct heat, no wasted energy in BTU's with flames into the air instead of the keggles. I believe in all electric heating no bottles needing refills at the crazy prices they are asking besides all the extra equipment needed with gas. JMO's and preferences using all electirc for brewing.
Herms and Rims systems with modest heating needs would be better served if electric heating was used, the amount of heat and method of use dictated gas firing for the steam injection system.
Open =? Flexible
Linear Mode
