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Old 03-04-2010, 03:22 PM   #1
limoges
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Default PID controller for MLT and E-Kettle?

Hi,

Is it possible to use the same PID for both the Mash Turn and Kettle? Basically How could I wire somesort of Switch between the 2 Elements+thermocouple probe combination?
Is this event duable?

Thanks!

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Old 03-04-2010, 04:23 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by limoges View Post
Hi,

Is it possible to use the same PID for both the Mash Turn and Kettle? Basically How could I wire somesort of Switch between the 2 Elements+thermocouple probe combination?
Is this event duable?

Thanks!
You would have to have a thermocouple switch and a very high current switch for the elements. Cost wise you would be better off getting another PID and SSR. You would not be able to use the single PID on the MLT and HLT simultaneously. I would also consider a BCS-460 which has four PID's in it.
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Old 03-04-2010, 04:37 PM   #3
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Thanks sawdustguy!

I like the idea of the BCS-460 but love the PID more because of it's non laptop requirement.

I like the idea of have a manual control panel in an industrial fashion. It's a style thing I guess.

I do realize the BCS is betta! But I am building my rig as a extract kettle first and then I will add a Mash turn as money permits.

Thanks again.

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Old 03-04-2010, 05:50 PM   #4
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I designed my control panel to be able to do exactly this once I finally get around to converting my kettle to electric. Right now I have a PID for my RIMS element and one for my HLT. Since a BK uses manual mode on the PID, I could use either PID to control the BK. Because of the way my CP controls are set up, I'll be using the PID that controls my RIMS/MT.

As long as you have a PID that supports manual control (Auber 2352/2362), all you need to switch is which element is being activated. Running in manual mode, you don't need or care about having a temp probe in your BK. Since a PID won't function without a temperature probe being connected, if you have a PID dedicated to your BK, you would have to have one in your BK. But if you already have a probe for your MT, you're all set.

My CP is set up so that the power to any element has a dedicated cutoff using a DP contactor. The switch on the CP for each element controls the contactor for that element. This means that even if the SSR is telling the element to turn on, unless the contactor is switched on the element won't be powered. To add an element to my BK, all I have to do is add another contactor and SSR, and replace the switch on my CP with a 3-way. Switch left, and it activates the contactor to supply power to my RIMS element. Switch center, and both contactors are off. Switch right, and the contactor for the BK is active. Controlling it this way, I don't care what the PID or SSR's are doing. I will just need to make sure to remember to activate manual mode on the PID when switching to the boiler, but the nice thing is that once I have the percentage dialled in to maintain a good boil, I'll never have to set it again.

At some point I'll have a thread about my control setup, just don't have the time now to do it properly...


MrH

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Old 03-04-2010, 07:01 PM   #5
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Right now I have a PID on my BK. I am still building the system.

When i step up to more control, I plan on getting a Love controller TSS2.
It is not a smart computer like a PID, but a simple switch, it may not be as accurate as a PID but with a bunch or control parameters I am thinking I can get it accurate enough.

For $69 the one switch + 2 k type thermocouplers it will monitor two temps and control 2 processes. I will use it to It will be able to monitor temps in the HLT and MLT and control the element in the HLT.

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Old 03-04-2010, 08:14 PM   #6
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I don't have a manual override...

I was thinking of installing receipticals on the outside of the control box and switching the element and probe (plugs) on the fly (no hot of course) to the same controller but the receipticales and plugs would probably be price wise just the same as a PID.

On another topic I read I should buy double amps that I will be drawing for my SSR. Is that required? I have a 25A SSR for a 5500w that will be on 240v. Isn't the 3amp spare enought?

thanks

thanks,

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Old 03-04-2010, 08:22 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by MrH View Post
My CP is set up so that the power to any element has a dedicated cutoff using a DP contactor. The switch on the CP for each element controls the contactor for that element. This means that even if the SSR is telling the element to turn on, unless the contactor is switched on the element won't be powered. To add an element to my BK, all I have to do is add another contactor and SSR, and replace the switch on my CP with a 3-way. Switch left, and it activates the contactor to supply power to my RIMS element. Switch center, and both contactors are off. Switch right, and the contactor for the BK is active. Controlling it this way, I don't care what the PID or SSR's are doing. I will just need to make sure to remember to activate manual mode on the PID when switching to the boiler, but the nice thing is that once I have the percentage dialled in to maintain a good boil, I'll never have to set it again.


MrH

So could I put a three way switche on both elements (after the SSR right?). Then I would manualy switch the probes. It's quite easy with plugged end K type probes.

And voila! ... My house burns down ...

Seriously thought would that work? I would have to do the manual switch. Both go off, then one on.

Would you see this as too much of a risk for human error?
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Old 03-04-2010, 08:27 PM   #8
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This is 12 x 12 x 6 and can handle 50A of load, wireless, BCS 460 (so you have PID, Differential, Direct and Duty Cycle control). There are 10 SSRs in there, all wired to the BCS, a 120VAC duplex outlet, wireless router, and the 105CFM cooling fan to keep it all cool. (yes that changes the air over about 200x per minute)

4 temp inputs, 6 power outputs, just plug in the pumps/elements and play!

It is just waiting on the SS stand to mount it to, that will be another week, or so for the TIG weld

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Old 03-04-2010, 08:40 PM   #9
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"They" are suggesting a 40A SSR, or at least that is what every one is using on 4500 W or greater. You also need a heat sync. Over building means the SSR and heat sync will not get overworked (stay cool). It is not like the system will be in use 24/7 so maybe a 25A will not be a huge issue, but if an SSR fails I believe it does closed, meaning powered on.

I have square electrical box on the back of my control panel. I run the power to the outlet through a 240V/30A 2-pole switch that runs to a 20A/240v outlet. I plug in the element to this outlet and can turn off the power to the element to the switch. With this setup you could also plug in another element to the outlet.

I have seen a thread asking about switching between thermocouplers but it was not possible. The thermocoupler sends its reading via resistance. Any switch would alter this info rendering it inaccurate. Auber has a plug that you can attach to the back of your control box that you can use to input thermocouplers so you can detach them. It could be used to change from one thermocoupler to the other. Auber carries one for both the RTD and K-type probes you will have to order the right one maybe two of them for two different couplers. Here is one for the k-type sensor. http://www.auberins.com/index.php?ma...roducts_id=119

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Old 03-04-2010, 10:32 PM   #10
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"They" are suggesting a 40A SSR, or at least that is what every one is using on 4500 W or greater. You also need a heat sync. Over building means the SSR and heat sync will not get overworked (stay cool). It is not like the system will be in use 24/7 so maybe a 25A will not be a huge issue, but if an SSR fails I believe it does closed, meaning powered on.

I have square electrical box on the back of my control panel. I run the power to the outlet through a 240V/30A 2-pole switch that runs to a 20A/240v outlet. I plug in the element to this outlet and can turn off the power to the element to the switch. With this setup you could also plug in another element to the outlet.

I have seen a thread asking about switching between thermocouplers but it was not possible. The thermocoupler sends its reading via resistance. Any switch would alter this info rendering it inaccurate. Auber has a plug that you can attach to the back of your control box that you can use to input thermocouplers so you can detach them. It could be used to change from one thermocoupler to the other. Auber carries one for both the RTD and K-type probes you will have to order the right one maybe two of them for two different couplers. Here is one for the k-type sensor. http://www.auberins.com/index.php?ma...roducts_id=119
Thank you for the clarification and link. I'll take a greater look at it this week-end.

It sure does sound I'll have to re-think my desired config.

hey willynilly, If you wanna really rub it in you could post a pick of the inside of that thing!
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