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Old 04-10-2013, 11:06 PM   #21
kickflip_mj
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Its not that bad, but you are basically welding blind on the bottom because the torch blocks your line of sight. needless to say I got 2 tanks done, but it took way to many times grinding then re-welding.

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Old 04-11-2013, 06:04 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by mattd2 View Post
Drake9 - sorry for the off topic but - Did you go straight to TIG or have you had experience with Arc/MIG? How did you find the leraning curve? Asking as I would like to get a entry level TIG set and learn, have minimal experience with arc / no MIG, and wanted to see how hard it was to pick up.
I am probably going to need to sell my current AG setup to fund the purchase of welder and equipment for the new AG setup though
No worries Matt. My TIG is the only welder (other then Oxy/Ace setup) that I own. I got into welding as I love to do stuff myself and bought an old Ironhead to turn into a chopper. I know I was going to need some welding done so I thought I might as well learn as knowledge never carries heavy.

I looked into classes at the local community college and they offered a welding cert program. So I went down that path. I took a MIG class first as that what fit into my schedule. Then it was onto Oxygen/ Acetylene (Oxy/Ace). After that it was TIG and then Stick. Then I took a "Auto Body Welding" class that was a lot of MIG but the instructor was the same guy I had for Oxy/Ace and probably the best instructor I have had.

I would recommend looking into your local community college and see if they offer any classes. If so I would start there. Might cost you a couple hundred dollars for the class but that is money well spent in my opinion. MIG and Stick are pretty easy to pick up and become efficient (notice I didn't say master). The learning curve for TIG was a little tough but I was in a class and I had already learned oxy/ace (remember I said by the best instructor I had) and that made a huge difference. The hardest part for me about TIG and oxy/Ace was getting the coordination down. I am by no means a master, I can weld and put out decent looking welds that more important shouldn't fail.

I feel your pain on the price of a welder, they are not cheap and as an E-5 in the Air Force I dont have a lot of spare cash. I picked mine up off CL for a good price. I would say buy the best/biggest machine you can afford. Save up some dough and watch CL like a hawk. Lincoln and Miller are both great and I have heard good things about the Eastwood units. I tend to buy the best tools I can as you wont be disappointed and I hate buying things twice.

I know that was probably a lot more then you were looking for, sorry just got going. If you have any more questions feel free to ask or PM me and we can talk more. I am just one source of information and lots of others out there with a lot more knowledge then me but I dont mind giving my opinion when asked.

Good luck and cheers

Jake
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Old 04-11-2013, 08:01 PM   #23
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Sorry bit confused with that comment, I thought for a weld for CIP use you would want full penetration (but not overdoing it). Don't you want the back side of the weld to melt and fuse together but not deposit a large "cap" of wled material that would be an issue to clean. In other words, you do not want the backside cut joint to be visiable, i.e. still look like two pieces butted up against each other, right?
Or am I misunderstanding what you meant - rereading I am thinking you are say - Full penetration but no convex protrusion on the back side of the weld?
Your statement is about full penetration is correct.

"Lack of penetration" is what you get when you fail to fully fuse the edges of the pipe on the inside of the joint.

By "penetration" I mean root weld reinforcement.
Root weld reinforcement is the proper term for penetration on the inside.

Welders just say penetration. Sorry to confuse you.

When you have penetration in your root it will should look as though you put a weld bead on the inside of the pipe.
I forget sometimes that I'm using trade lingo.
The weld when complete should fully fuse both sides of the joint but not protrude excessively inside.
In petro and chemical piping some penetration is preferred. In food and pharm they like to see a root that is flush and not stick up above the inside walls of the tube or pipe.
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Old 04-11-2013, 08:12 PM   #24
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So here you are saying to put a small wad of steel wool into the fitting then the argon hose into the outside of the fitting blowing in and have the oxygen then argon go out the can on the inside of the keg?

I dont think you sound like a know it all, just someone that is experienced helping someone that doesnt know to learn and for that I say thank you.

Jake

No, what I am saying is roll a ball of steel wool and stick in the open end of the fitting your welding to your keg on the outside of the keg instead of leaving the outlet of the fitting wide open for drafts of air to blow in and contaminate the Argon shielding.
The Argon should fill the can pushing the air out of the fitting your welding in.
The steel wool will also reduce the risk of your Argon from shooting straight through the can and out of the fitting.

The set-up you pictured with the hose going into the can inside the keg is right.
Make sure you seal the hose where it enters the can and where the can is taped to the keg wall very well.
Small cracks where your tape isn't sealing can suck in air contaminating the Argon.
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Old 04-11-2013, 09:13 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by dmfa200 View Post
Your statement is about full penetration is correct.

"Lack of penetration" is what you get when you fail to fully fuse the edges of the pipe on the inside of the joint.

By "penetration" I mean root weld reinforcement.
Root weld reinforcement is the proper term for penetration on the inside.

Welders just say penetration. Sorry to confuse you.

When you have penetration in your root it will should look as though you put a weld bead on the inside of the pipe.
I forget sometimes that I'm using trade lingo.
The weld when complete should fully fuse both sides of the joint but not protrude excessively inside.
In petro and chemical piping some penetration is preferred. In food and pharm they like to see a root that is flush and not stick up above the inside walls of the tube or pipe.
Thanks dmfa, I think it is more because of my professional engineering background being to particular about symantics It is really good to have resources like yourself on here with the practical knowledge to help us out. Thanks!
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...The set-up you pictured with the hose going into the can inside the keg is right.
Make sure you seal the hose where it enters the can and where the can is taped to the keg wall very well.
Small cracks where your tape isn't sealing can suck in air contaminating the Argon.
What tape are you using? Looks like duct tape/electrical tape. I have seen some alluminium foil HVAC tape that seems to hold up much better.
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Old 04-12-2013, 12:24 AM   #26
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Thanks dmfa, I think it is more because of my professional engineering background being to particular about symantics It is really good to have resources like yourself on here with the practical knowledge to help us out. Thanks!


What tape are you using? Looks like duct tape/electrical tape. I have seen some alluminium foil HVAC tape that seems to hold up much better.
Plain old masking tape is what is commonly used.
We kept rolls of it along with our tools and consumables with us.
Don't be shy and tape well off the can onto the keg. Just put down overlapping layers until you get well away from the heat from welding
The heat from welding can soften the glue and the can will come loose and you will lose shielding.
Any glue that comes off onto the keg can easily be removed with Acetone.
Wait until the weld area is cool. the glue comes off easier.

On small welds the prep work to make the weld takes more time than the actual weld takes.

Unless you are a production welder, most welders that do work of this nature spend a small percentage of the time actually welding.
The majority of the work is in set-up and prep.
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Old 04-12-2013, 03:55 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by dmfa200 View Post
No, what I am saying is roll a ball of steel wool and stick in the open end of the fitting your welding to your keg on the outside of the keg instead of leaving the outlet of the fitting wide open for drafts of air to blow in and contaminate the Argon shielding.
The Argon should fill the can pushing the air out of the fitting your welding in.
The steel wool will also reduce the risk of your Argon from shooting straight through the can and out of the fitting.

The set-up you pictured with the hose going into the can inside the keg is right.
Make sure you seal the hose where it enters the can and where the can is taped to the keg wall very well.
Small cracks where your tape isn't sealing can suck in air contaminating the Argon.
Okay, that makes more sense to me. I need to tape a lot better too I think. I ordered some more fittings and picked up the stuff to build the keg tool. Think I am going to send this Keg down the road and pick up another one and try again. Still got one more to do too.

Thanks again for all the words of wisdom and help.

Jake
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Old 04-12-2013, 07:00 AM   #28
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Also I picked up the stuff for the $4.87 keg tool thinking I could dimple the keg out like the picture below (stolen from the other thread) then run the bead right around the edge of the keg wall. So it would kinda be like a lap weld. Do you think that would work or should I dimple in and weld in the gap or dont even dimple? Thanks again for answering all my questions.

image-4135791592.jpg  
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Old 04-12-2013, 10:24 AM   #29
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I think you should do what you are comfortable with. The method that you use to weld the fitting in is not critical. The goal is just to make a clean sound weld.
If these were fermenters I would use TC fittings and use this technique.

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/pulling-hole-tri-clamp-fitting-277656/

Flaring the hole allows you access to the root of the weld(to grind and blend the weld)in a situation where it would otherwise be impossible in the case of a keg or vessel with no openings.

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