Keg tool

I haven't done a ton of metal working but have a decent bit and I don't believe you're thinking rationally. Sure you could get lucky and pull a fitting through an undersized hole but 99% of the time its going to be pulled off center or skewed in some way creating a messy hole. IMO it would be nearly impossible to use a standard coupling or any other fitting to create a uniform flare as he as done. Now if you were to machine a tapered plug that could be pulled through more consistently then you may have a shot.

ReeseAllen said:

If the fitting is stainless, all he has to do is set up a jig that will pull the fitting through an undersized hole. There is no need for a special tool to flare the hole. You just pull the fitting through the hole and it flares it in the process.

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GreenMonti said:

I wonder how much force this would take? If it could be done without distorting the curve of the keg to much?

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You'd use a large, lubricated bolt to do the pulling. The surface of the main block that mates with the outside of the keg would need to have a radius that roughly matched the keg's, perhaps a bit larger. It would also help to fillet the edge of the hole to encourage the formation of a nicely-shaped radius in the bent sheet metal.

The attached drawing (which took way too damn long to draw) shows what I have in mind. I doubt you do it exactly like this, but I'm fairly confident that if I drew this up in CAD at work and had our machine shop make it for me, I could use it to achieve what you do.

zanemoseley said:

I haven't done a ton of metal working but have a decent bit and I don't believe you're thinking rationally. Sure you could get lucky and pull a fitting through an undersized hole but 99% of the time its going to be pulled off center or skewed in some way creating a messy hole. IMO it would be nearly impossible to use a standard coupling or any other fitting to create a uniform flare as he as done. Now if you were to machine a tapered plug that could be pulled through more consistently then you may have a shot.

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See my image above. You may need to incorporate some bushings to properly center the fitting over the hole before the pulling starts, but once you've aligned it properly, the coupling should pull through cleanly and symmetrically and produce a result just like in the pictures GreenMonti posted.

I believe Swagman stated in another thread that he turns his SS fittings down to a true 1". What if you apply this principal but taper the fitting so that the leading edge is a bit undersized then pull it though the 1" hole. It wouldn't make that nice shaped hole but it would "flare" the side wall and make a friction fit.

pickles said:

I believe Swagman stated in another thread that he turns his SS fittings down to a true 1". What if you apply this principal but taper the fitting so that the leading edge is a bit undersized then pull it though the 1" hole. It wouldn't make that nice shaped hole but it would "flare" the side wall and make a friction fit.

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Really shouldn't be necessary. If you pull a parallel-OD coupling through an undersized hole, supporting the sheet metal where needed to prevent unwanted deformation, and keep the coupling properly concentric and normal to the hole, it should produce the same result that GreenMonti achieves. Most of the deformation will occur during the first 1/4" of pulling, and then at that point you just pull the rest of the coupling through until it's flush on the backside.

LiquidGold said:

Lehr,
The hole looks similar to what you did on the line of holes on your brew rig.

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I use mittler brothers belling dies.

Pat

So, with the ideas that have been put up. Who is going to start building a tool?

From this picture you can see a darkened mark going around the flange. So you did have something on the outside of the hole as the flange was formed.


From this photo of the inside there is also a dark mark.


Here is a picture of a home made Belling/Flange Die.


The only thing that would have to be done is to put a hole through it so it could be formed by tightening a bolt through the center

This is the web site that I found it on.

http://users.lmi.net/~ryoung/Sonerai/Belling_or_Flanging_Dies.html

There are probably a number of ways to do this.

It is a nice touch on the outside.

I would be concerned with the crevice on the inside.

BTW nice welds.

I must admit I am a little confuzzid.

Why the concern about the inward slope? All sanitay things aside, there is still the same "crack" in the other method, No?

I have this in my mash tun and have never got anything stuck in there. (I made my kettle before I got around to this). I have a more difficult time getting the grains out of my coupler where the thermometer is screwed in.

Well its human nature to find fault with all things good. With how incredibly nice your work looks there has to be something to pick on about it!

By the way, the crevice would not concern me at all.

About a week now....Anyone built anything?

I am not really qualified to comment, but I can't resist.
1) Beautiful welds/ work - I would buy from you if geographically feasible
2) when I had a weldor (ha) work on my keggles, I had him do his welds on the inside (he wasn't too psyched about this), because that is my understanding of a sanitary weld. Does it really matter what the outside looks like if the inside is 100% functional? I would have to believe that that area inside the flange around the fitting would be a breeding ground for bacteria.... but nothing a 1 hour boil wouldn't kill either. Bottom line to me is still, sanitary/functional would rate higher beautiful on the outside.... though this is not how I married!!!!!

Half-wheel-hell said:

I am not really qualified to comment, but I can't resist.
1) Beautiful welds/ work - I would buy from you if geographically feasible
2) when I had a weldor (ha) work on my keggles, I had him do his welds on the inside (he wasn't too psyched about this), because that is my understanding of a sanitary weld. Does it really matter what the outside looks like if the inside is 100% functional? I would have to believe that that area inside the flange around the fitting would be a breeding ground for bacteria.... but nothing a 1 hour boil wouldn't kill either. Bottom line to me is still, sanitary/functional would rate higher beautiful on the outside.... though this is not how I married!!!!!

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Thank you for the complement. However I don't guess I follow you entirely.

Sanitary welds, be it inside or outside of a piece must meet spec. A sanitary enviroment is the same on either side of the equipment. Even the polish on SS has to meet a sanitary rating. That is if that is what you are going for. Looks in the end mean nothing, when it comes to meeting a standard. A inspector cannot fail a weld based on looks alone. If it meets spec then it is a good weld. Period. Would my method meet a sanitary spec after the boil, No. I am not building fermentors either. Not yet.

If you welded in a coupler and had them weld it on the inside of the keg....you still don't meet sanitary spec. You have a big area to harbor nasties in the threads. This is why they make sanitary fittings.

GreenMonti said:

About a week now....Anyone built anything?

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I'm a newbie on this site so don't flame me for asking, Are you trying to lead us to water?

I'm a bit confused about all this. It seems as though you're trying to keep your technique secret and yet suggest a path for similar results. Why don't you sell a tool instead of suggesting others make one? I mean if this is something to set you apart from the rest and make profit that would make the most cents. And if a tool already exists order it in bulk and sell it to others for a small profit. Just my $0.02.

Either way great looking welds.

Who cares...really...just go weldless!

NorCalMik said:

I'm a newbie on this site so don't flame me for asking, Are you trying to lead us to water?

I'm a bit confused about all this. It seems as though you're trying to keep your technique secret and yet suggest a path for similar results. Why don't you sell a tool instead of suggesting others make one? I mean if this is something to set you apart from the rest and make profit that would make the most cents. And if a tool already exists order it in bulk and sell it to others for a small profit. Just my $0.02.

Either way great looking welds.

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Yes I am trying to help out, in the making of a tool to achieve similar results. I don't have the time to make these tools for sale. Even if I did, I would only sell a few before they were copied anyway. The problem with tools that are already made, is that they are made of carbon steel. They also don't do the job the way mine does cause mine is a one trick wonder. I can't use it to do anything else. I am going to have to make another one to do 1" couplers.

IMO, it is not a good idea to be using carbon steel on SS. That is my thought. It doesn't mean that it can't be used. Another HBT member has used carbon steel dies to do the dimpling on his bew setup. IDK if he is, has, or will have problems with rust on his setup cause IDK if he had anything passivated or did any polishing after the use of the tools. His dimpling was not welded on either. So if the free iron is there it is just on the surface.

Thank you for the compliment.

Show us your tool already! Enough

wilserbrewer said:

Show us your tool already! Enough

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I might get banned for that.

I dunno what GreenMonti uses, however using a simple die and puller set that you can get for $50 at Harbor Freight works great when we TIG our equip together. All we do is start the bevel on the hole with the die getting you 70% of the way there then just pull the coupling right on through and it works just like how GreenMonti has shown in his pics. The key is to start the bevel with the die set or you will not be centered, then screw an attachment into the coupler so it is pulled nice and straight. No special tool is necessary, i dunno if he has built something different, if so its most likely an easier process than ours. However, doing it this way works amazingly.

Brewin_CRAZY said:

I dunno what GreenMonti uses, however using a simple die and puller set that you can get for $50 at Harbor Freight works great when we TIG our equip together. All we do is start the bevel on the hole with the die getting you 70% of the way there then just pull the coupling right on through and it works just like how GreenMonti has shown in his pics. The key is to start the bevel with the die set or you will not be centered, then screw an attachment into the coupler so it is pulled nice and straight. No special tool is necessary, i dunno if he has built something different, if so its most likely an easier process than ours. However, doing it this way works amazingly.

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Post up some pics of your work. Please.

Have you ever had any issues with rust from using steel dies?

I have used the mittler bros. dimple dies on my heat shields with no rust issues but that is on a flat heat shield on a keg they would not work because they would make contact on the outer edges and cause a flat spot or worse tear the keg.

Pat

lehr said:

I have used the mittler bros. dimple dies on my heat shields with no rust issues but that is on a flat heat shield on a keg they would not work because they would make contact on the outer edges and cause a flat spot or worse tear the keg.

Pat

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Just crapped myself after seeing this picture. Ooops.

lehr said:

I have used the mittler bros. dimple dies on my heat shields with no rust issues but that is on a flat heat shield on a keg they would not work because they would make contact on the outer edges and cause a flat spot or worse tear the keg.

Pat

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Scut_Monkey said:

Just crapped myself after seeing this picture. Ooops.

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A very nice system to be sure. A lot there to be very proud of.

lehr,
you are a true craftsman


On the topic though....I wonder how much water this rig has seen?

I am not a weldor, but I have dabbled in it from time to time. I know enough about TIG welding to make me love my wire-feed for everything but keg work.

If you used a carbon steel tool to do work on stainless, couldn't you pickle any CS residue off? I'd just as soon avoid the problem by avoiding the contamination, but if worst came to worst remember: better living through chemistry!

I haven't searched for it, but I remember seeing guys use pickling paste to re-passivate welds on stainless tanks, and there are plenty of acids that will dissolve carbon steel but not stainless. Oxalic acid (aka Barkeeper's Friend) is one of those.

All this said, I have half-barrels to chop into keggles and I'm 99% sure they'll be weldless.

Greenmonti it's seen 193 gallons of beer made in it and plenty of water to clean it up.

Thanks Pat

lehr, do you have a build thread? Or any complete picture of your setup? I would love to see them. Awesome work!

greeneyed said:

lehr, do you have a build thread? Or any complete picture of your setup? I would love to see them. Awesome work!

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Yes it's titled My rig...But I dont know how to link it.

Thanks Pat

Here ya go, Pat.

I've admired from afar. Nice work!

Hugh_Jass said:

Here ya go, Pat.

I've admired from afar. Nice work!

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Thanks Large buttock.

PAT

lehr said:

Greenmonti it's seen 193 gallons of beer made in it and plenty of water to clean it up.

Thanks Pat

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You keep that thing shinned up real nice from what I have seen. You may never see any fungus due to all the polishing. I hope you never have an issue. That's one heck of a nice system.

Happy Brewing.

Scut_Monkey said:

Just crapped myself after seeing this picture. Ooops.

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lehr said:

I have used the mittler bros. dimple dies on my heat shields with no rust issues but that is on a flat heat shield on a keg they would not work because they would make contact on the outer edges and cause a flat spot or worse tear the keg.

Pat

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Good lord that is sweet, Ill be getting m keggle tomorrow and hopefully I can get mine that clean, it is electric so hopefully it'll stay really clean also.

Sorry if I skipped over something with the answer, but I am an impatient ADD type. I have a friend with a gear puller, and kegs are about 16.5" dia, I can make a brace block out of wood.

If Chromium is what makes steel stainless, and the back side of the keg in question looks "over rounded", like a huge drywall dimpler, do they make a dimpler thing thats chrome plated? (Or even better a huge hollow (bolt-holed) cone that can be drawn to a set level?)

Here is how it is done. Its made of SS. The gold looking piece is made of Ampco 20. Ampco is a cold drawn brass that is hard as he!!. The higher the number the harder the brass. I wouldn't go above 20. Regular brass wont work its too soft. The Ampco is self lubrication and doesn't contaminate the SS when drawn through.

At long last the secret is revealed! I assume you turn down those couplers before use. Nice tool, I love shop made tools.

bendavanza said:

At long last the secret is revealed! I assume you turn down those couplers before use. Nice tool, I love shop made tools.

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I polish off the casting but that is it. The cone shaped piece is about .015" smaller then the coupling. This allows a little for the polish and it lets the coupling size the final hole, making for a very snug fit. It takes a hammer to move it to the final resting place.

Thank you, Monti, for sharing. Fantastic work.

Cool. I would have thought that the outer sleeve would have had to match the curve of the keg shell. that was the part that was throwing me off.

Thank You very much for sharing this.

Monti,
Nice work, thanks for sharing.

Curious though. Why'd you decide to give it up after holding out?

yay! you came back to the light monti! thanks for sharing! :cheers: