Spike Brewing 12.5 Conical Fermenter Giveaway - Enter Now!

Home Brew Forums > Home Brewing Beer > DIY Projects > HERMS vs. "Counterflow" HERMS

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 01-29-2013, 10:00 PM   #71
Vesku
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Lievala, Kuusumu
Posts: 108
Liked 20 Times on 14 Posts
Likes Given: 9

Default

Thanks, I'm glad someone is getting something out of my yarns

I'm moving and can't take the gear with me, at least not the whole brewery. I might get back on to it with a bigger set-up once I know where I live next. I'm hoping I can get my hands on **** next, into bio-gas methane that is Maybe to make a bio-gas powered brewery. I would like to drive my next car with bio-gas too.

I use these for measurements: http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/5PCS-Waterproof-Digital-Thermal-Probe-Sensor-DS18B20-/140759967888?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item20c5f2 a890 Sorry about the long URL, but it may help in future when the listing expires.

I've the mash sensor about 100mm in the grains. Just tucked in there. I was thinking to use more than one sensor and do some averaging, but I think it's best to not overheat any part of the mash. Just the sensor with a low thermal mass and near the hottest part of the mash. The wort temperature is telling it's story about the temperatures in lower parts of the mash anyway.

My wort sensor is inside the wort hose, inserted from the end of the hose. I've had the best results this way, no lag and no air bubbles trapped in turbulence. And again a low thermal mass.

__________________
Vesku is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-29-2013, 10:25 PM   #72
helibrewer
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 1 reviews
 
helibrewer's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Santa Rosa, CA
Posts: 3,151
Liked 183 Times on 167 Posts
Likes Given: 42

Default

I have recently moved to another style of RIMs. I heat the HLT with propane; that flows into pump1 which pumps into a 1650W 120V RIMs tube (1.5" SS pipe). The output of the RIMs tube flows into a 50' copper coil in my Igloo MLT which then returns to the HLT. I have sensors in my RIMs tube at the output and in my MLT. The controlling sensor is my MLT sensor which through BrewTroller, cycles pump1 and the RIMs element. I could do this without the RIMs and just pump HLT water through the copper coil but having the RIMs seems to help ramp up step mashes quicker.

The other thing I like about this is that I can use pump2 to recirc the MLT whenever I want or not at all. I try to pump the wort as little as possible and just recirc during mash out.

__________________
Something is always fermenting....
"It's Bahl Hornin'"

Primary:
Brite Tank/Lagering:
Kegged: Hefeweizen, Chocolate Hazelnut Porter, Kumquat Saison, Tart Cherry Cider, Belgian Tripel, Maibock Bock, Ommegang Abbey Ale Clone, Belgian Golden Strong, German Pils (WLP830)
Bottled: Belgian Quad (Grand Reserve), Derangement (Belgian Dark Strong)
On Deck:
My Site: www.restlesscellars.com
helibrewer is offline
Vesku Likes This 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-31-2013, 02:26 AM   #73
Merzeone
.....DeeeRuuunk
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Merzeone's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Davenport, IA
Posts: 31
Liked 2 Times on 2 Posts
Likes Given: 8

Default

"One option would be to use the BK to heat the sparge water and when your mash schedule is done (mash out) just transfer the needed amount of water into the HLT. I hope that made any sense...."

The problem with this solution is that I can only run 1 element at a time.... using a 30amp GFCI circuit.....
I appreciate all your info thus far you are cracking into the HERMS system and exposing all the variables. I just have to decide if they are worth living with.
I already have a CF HEX I made but its out of high temp hose and a copper coil stuffed inside it, I wouldnt drink out of the water side so I probably wouldnt use the water for brewing.....

__________________
RRRRRROAW RRRRRRROAW like a dungeon dragon!!!
Merzeone is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-31-2013, 02:31 AM   #74
Vesku
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Lievala, Kuusumu
Posts: 108
Liked 20 Times on 14 Posts
Likes Given: 9

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by helibrewer View Post
.... The other thing I like about this is that I can use pump2 to recirc the MLT whenever I want or not at all. I try to pump the wort as little as possible and just recirc during mash out.....
That sounds good, how fast heating do you get?

Have you noticed some off flavors, if the recirculation is on all the time or why do you want to limit that? But you're right anyway, why recirculate more than is needed?

DC-pumps would be very handy, I think that I'll use those, if I ever build another setup. Just use PWM and slow everything down when temps are OK. The biggest cause of the need of heating the mash in my setup is the heat loses of the recirculation anyway.
__________________
Vesku is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-31-2013, 02:52 AM   #75
Vesku
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Lievala, Kuusumu
Posts: 108
Liked 20 Times on 14 Posts
Likes Given: 9

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Merzeone View Post
The problem with this solution is that I can only run 1 element at a time.... using a 30amp GFCI circuit.....
You could use a cheap power regulator to cut down the BK-power. I don't know how big patches you do, but you wouldn't need too much of a power to heat the sparge water during the mash. I've one cheap regulator that I use on my brew kettle.... http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/110951353705?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p398 4.m1438.l2649 A little underrated for you, but if you only use it for regulating the power and bypass it with a switch when doing the boil it might do the trick. Or there may be similar products with a higher power rating.

I've been using my brewing setups for about one brew at the most, so I'm the last person to consult when it comes to the making the decision what type of system you can live with
__________________
Vesku is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-03-2013, 10:01 PM   #76
alien
Feedback Score: 1 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 1,234
Liked 65 Times on 58 Posts
Likes Given: 61

Default

Blimey, that power regulator costs less than a SSR + heatsink.

alien is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-04-2013, 06:27 PM   #77
Vesku
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Lievala, Kuusumu
Posts: 108
Liked 20 Times on 14 Posts
Likes Given: 9

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by alien View Post
Blimey, that power regulator costs less than a SSR + heatsink.
Yes, and the only way to control the boil intensity is to control the amount of power that goes in.

There's a big triac inside, a really basic circuit, looks like a zero crossing.
__________________
Vesku is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 04-28-2013, 06:20 AM   #78
orangehero
Feedback Score: 2 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Northeast
Posts: 839
Liked 102 Times on 53 Posts
Likes Given: 178

Default

Vesku,

Are you recirculating the mash the entire time and then periodically pumping 80C hot water through the heat exchanger?

It looks like you are repeatedly heating the wort running through the heat exchanger to over 70C. Do you not notice an effect on the enzymatic activity of the mash as beta-amylase is rapidly denatured at those temperatures?

__________________
orangehero is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 04-29-2013, 06:19 AM   #79
Vesku
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Lievala, Kuusumu
Posts: 108
Liked 20 Times on 14 Posts
Likes Given: 9

Default

Yep, I was recirculating the wort all the time and running the pump that heats the HX as necessary (sold almost all my gear, I'm in the process of building a new setup http://tinyurl.com/chgken9).

The mash it self was not heated over the set temperature, just the wort. I had quite a lot of water in the mash so that I had a big buffer of wort on top of the grains to prevent the "over heated" wort hitting the grain bed before it had a change to cool down a bit.

The efficiency was really good and the beer tasted and looked great, so I didn't worry about heating the wort over the enzymatic thresholds. I don't know if there's any science done on the subject i.e. what happens to the wort in this up and down process? I guess that all the commercial mash tanks with an external heating chamber have to "over heat" the wort too or it would take for ages to heat up the mash.

My new setup will use DC-pump for recirculating the wort and I'm going to put a PWM-speed control on it. The idea is that the pump goes fast when the mash temp is well below the set-point and slows down when near it. This should cut down the heat losses that occur when the pump is running full power all the time.

__________________
Vesku is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 04-29-2013, 06:44 AM   #80
orangehero
Feedback Score: 2 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Northeast
Posts: 839
Liked 102 Times on 53 Posts
Likes Given: 178

Default

If I understand your distinction of mash and wort correctly, the enzymes are soluble so they are mainly in the wort. The ideal method would be to maintain the wort temperature at set point and wait for the grain bed to equalize, but it may be that the short time at elevated temperature has no significant effect as long as you get repeatable results.

I like your birch-bark stir plate.

__________________
orangehero is offline
Vesku Likes This 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply


Quick Reply
Message:
Options
Thread Tools


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Using a convoluted counterflow chiller as a heat exchanger in a HERMS? kylekestell DIY Projects 27 08-18-2014 01:42 PM
5/8" OD Copper Counterflow Chiller Beerman213 DIY Projects 15 07-09-2011 01:32 PM
25 ft of 1/2" copper long enough for a HERMS coil? RegionalChaos DIY Projects 4 01-28-2011 11:14 PM
HERMS coil length - 15' x 1/2" too little? drummermattie02 DIY Projects 2 12-21-2010 06:48 PM
HERMS coil: What wall thickness for stainless tubing? 0.035" ok? kal DIY Projects 7 02-16-2009 02:55 PM