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Old 12-01-2012, 01:36 AM   #41
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OK, I got the mash done. It's better now that I limited the pump reruns, but I think I need to limit the pump on time as well when I get near the set point.

4C(7.2F)/minute mash temp change, but the probe was quite near the top of the grains.... Easiest way to get fast ramp times is to place the sensor "right"
Overshoots are about 0,8C at the peak.

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Old 12-01-2012, 04:33 PM   #42
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Are these just throw-away test mashes to test out your equipment and processes because those mashes are RIDICULIOUSLY long?? (1 hour and 45 minutes longer than necessary for 95+% of grists...)


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Old 12-03-2012, 03:42 AM   #43
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It's mainly because I don't have any idea what I'm doing. I've just been reading about mashing and I guess this one will be a quite dry beer :P

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Old 12-04-2012, 06:58 AM   #44
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Default CFC Herms plumbing

Here's how my plumbing is done (about):

I use the HERMS CFC pump to make a whirlpool as well and that makes things a little bit more complicated.

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Old 12-04-2012, 04:54 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by bendiy View Post
You're confused on the counter-flow HERMS process. I don't control the HTL temp, I just want it to be pretty hot so it has more thermal energy to transfer to the Mash. 180F to 200F is fine and you can do that manually. You do want to avoid boiling so you don't get bubbles in the line. I've found that the recirculation will pull enough heat out to avoid a boil.
Ah, yes I see that the flow rate of the controlled liquid through the CF Heat Exchanger is the primary modulator. I overlooked that but it doesn't come into play in my final analysis anyway.

One needs to ask a few questions about this process.

The problem: Temperature stratification in the HLT of a HERMS during the mash. If the temperature of the liquid in the HLT is not uniform, there will be inaccuracies either in regulating the MASH temp or regulating the Sparge temp, depending on where you put the probe.

The stratification problem usually manifests itself as hotter water near the top of the tank and cooler water near the bottom. During a sparge, if one is regulating the sparge temperature from the water drawn from the bottom of the HLT, it will become a problem as the temperature will sneak up during the sparge, and there is not a very good means of cooling water by a few degrees very quickly in-line with a pump. SO...

Question 1: How do I solve the temperature stratification problem?
Answer: There are several ways.

a.) use a pump to recirculate the HLT water.

b.) use a dedicated stirrer in the HLT.

c.) use your CFC to recirculate the HLT and MLT simultaneously.

Question 2: Which way is best?

Answer:

You decide. I'm going with a.).
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Old 12-05-2012, 06:14 PM   #46
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The problem: Temperature stratification in the HLT of a HERMS during the mash. If the temperature of the liquid in the HLT is not uniform, there will be inaccuracies either in regulating the MASH temp or regulating the Sparge temp, depending on where you put the probe.
If this is the only problem that you're focusing on, then I agree that just stirring / recirculating the HLT are probably the way to go. BUT many of us are trying to solve more brewing problems that just that.

If you have an uninsulated, nondirect-fired mashtun you need a method to add heat to the mash; HERMS is certainly a solution to this second problem.

If you want the ability to step mash and direct-fire isn't an option, HERMS / RIMS are your possible solutions. The rate of temp rises has been one of the biggest "cons" against HERMs, as obviously is temp stratification in the HLT. Using a counter flow chiller in this manner solves the temp stratification issue (both in the HLT AND in the mash where it's even more important) and the rate-of-rise issue, as a recirculated mash it also results in incredibly clear wort.

Electric brewing is also gaining in popularity very quickly; one of the primary benefits is being able to brew indoors all year long because of a lack of carbon monoxide and a lack of an open flame -again a system where you're generally not going to be applying direct heat to the mash and need external heat.

Summary: This solution makes HERMS better and addresses 2 of the major HERMS concerns; it's a big step forward. If you're not interested in HERMS then why would you bother to comment on a thread that's about traditional HERMS vs. Counterflow HERMS? (this is called "trolling" in most parts of the interwebs)


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Old 12-05-2012, 06:51 PM   #47
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If this is the only problem that you're focusing on, then I agree that just stirring / recirculating the HLT are probably the way to go. BUT many of us are trying to solve more brewing problems that just that.

If you have an uninsulated, nondirect-fired mashtun you need a method to add heat to the mash; HERMS is certainly a solution to this second problem.

If you want the ability to step mash and direct-fire isn't an option, HERMS / RIMS are your possible solutions. The rate of temp rises has been one of the biggest "cons" against HERMs, as obviously is temp stratification in the HLT. Using a counter flow chiller in this manner solve the temp stratification issue and the rate-of-rise issue.

Electric brewing is also gaining in popularity very quickly; one of the primary benefits is being able to brew indoors all year long because of a lack of carbon monoxide -again a system where you're generally not going to be applying direct heat to the mash and need external heat.

In a statement this solution makes HERMS better and addresses 2 of the major concerns; it's a big step forward. If you're not interested in HERMS then why would you bother to comment on a thread that's about traditional HERMS vs. Counterflow HERMS? (this is called "trolling")


Adam
Well thanks for the lovely accusation of trolling.

Obviously you haven't been paying very close attention to this thread. If you were, you would know that I AM interested in building a HERMS and have said so many times already. This thread is about the benefits and detriments of using a CFC as a heat exchanger during the mash of a HERMS system.

Furthermore, I STARTED this thread. How is it even technically possible to troll my own thread, unless this thread's sole purpose was to troll?

But anyway, there's no trolling here. I think that using a CFC as a mash heat exchanger looks very promising. From the plots it appears that all the mash final temps finished too cold, but that wouldn't be a problem if one was targeting 170F instead of 165F. The rise times look to be around 10 minutes which is really quite good for 10 gallon batches. I have nothing against the use and I think using the CFC is an interesting take on the HERMS systems. I'm just going with a standard HERMS and recirculating the HLT water during the mash because it's easier to automate with an electric system. If I fine tune my system and see that I can't get good temperature rise times, I may very well consider moving towards a CFC HERMS in the future.

Lay off me. And don't go around calling people trolls when you have no idea what you're talking about.
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Old 12-05-2012, 08:01 PM   #48
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Furthermore, I STARTED this thread. How is it even technically possible to troll my own thread, unless this thread's sole purpose was to troll?

Well that's embarrassing...

My bad, fully apologize on the trolling comment, my brain was apparently taking a vacation today without me.

I hadn't read the thread in a quite a while and just jumped in at the newest posts and took one post out of the context of the rest of the thread.

I see that you're fully evaluating all the pros and cons and are looking at it from different angles one at a time. (I do the same.)
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Old 12-05-2012, 09:03 PM   #49
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Ah don't worry about it. Everyone has moments like that.

If you want to see trolling, go check out the debate forum. Lots of fun stuff there and while trolling is explicitly prohibited, we find a way around it

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Old 12-06-2012, 02:25 PM   #50
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Well that's embarrassing...

My bad, fully apologize on the trolling comment, my brain was apparently taking a vacation today without me.

I hadn't read the thread in a quite a while and just jumped in at the newest posts and took one post out of the context of the rest of the thread.

I see that you're fully evaluating all the pros and cons and are looking at it from different angles one at a time. (I do the same.)
Hmmmm.


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