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Old 09-16-2012, 12:33 AM   #21
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HERMS using a CFC only requires two pumps for a single tier system. One recirculates the HLT and one recirculates the Mash.
But I have a stirrer, and when I only had one pump, I still was able to do this. If you have a stirrer for the HLT, you don't need a stirrer!

I had only one pump for ages and could batch sparge and do HERMS without any issues, since I could stir the HLT water.


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Old 11-27-2012, 01:15 AM   #22
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HERMS using a CFC only requires two pumps for a single tier system. One recirculates the HLT and one recirculates the Mash.

When the HERMS coil is in the HTL, your mash temp is dependent on the temp of the HTL. You have to control the HLT temp closely and the temp in the HTL is directly related to the temp of the mash. There might be a few degree difference.

There is more control using the CFC. I keep the mash recirculating all the time. That helps to form a nice bed. I control the pump that recirculates the HLT through the CFC. If the mash needs to be hotter, I turn the pump on for the HTL. That moves heat from the HLT to the CFC which acts as a heat exchanger and heats the mash. If the mash is getting too hot, I just cut the pump to the HLT which immediately removes any heat source from the mash. The temp of the HLT doesn't matter as long as it's warmer than the Mash. I try to keep it at 170 sparge out temps.

I can also change the input to the CFC to cold water if I ever need to cool a mash, but hopefully that never happens.
I've a similar system. A one big advantage is that it's very fast. I'm getting 3C/min step's on mine (5kg mash) while using 80C HLT-water for the CFC. It's pretty hard to control though, I'm using 2 measuring points (wort + mash) and an Arduino to keep mash temp in control. I can keep the mash temp under 0.5C from the set temperature. https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-Bppy6tm8pVc/ULQfRHdouMI/AAAAAAAAMXY/sLqH9uSrwRo/s912/cfctest6.jpg

I've build my own convoluted double copper CFC for the HERMS. It can be much shorter than what's needed for cooling the wort.


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Old 11-27-2012, 03:49 PM   #23
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Nice work Vesku. Looks like you've got it under good control. What method are you using in the Arduino? PID or simple ON/OFF?

I need to finish my Arduino controller this winter.

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Old 11-27-2012, 04:10 PM   #24
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A stir motor is the cheapest and easiest way to go unless you already have a spare pump laying around. I paid $15 for a 60rpm motor...



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Old 11-27-2012, 04:51 PM   #25
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just avoid the whole situation all together and build a dedicated HERMS pot... i never liked HLT-as-HERMS designs for this very reason, among others.





also working on a new one, out of stainless...
I do this in a 2 gallon igloo cooler. Works beautifully.
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Old 11-27-2012, 06:39 PM   #26
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I am thinking all this is over-complicating the issue. The temp of the wort coming out of the herms tube is what is important and if you are regulating your heat source via PID/controller off of that the control should not care about the heat stratification and it just wont matter as long as it can get the wort coming out at a consistent temperature.

I am running my eHERMs without any circulation of the HLT water and only using a simple temp controller and the temp coming out of the coil stays within 1 degree of my set point.

Please tell me where I am wrong?
Some things to think about. Do we even know how much of a temperature difference is going on with any given system design? Is it 20 degrees? Won't the copper or stainless coil also help carry the heat through the HLT?

Enough of a temperature difference could theoretically change the temperature of the wort enough at a certain point in the coil that the enzymes don't perform as expected. IMO uneducated mind, the likelihood of this happening is very slim. I imagine that once a wort reaches a stable temps, the temperature differential is not enough to be concerned with.

A larger diameter and shorter coil would obviously have less stratification going on than one which is narrow and tall. Therefore there may be more of an issue with the latter design.

That all said, there are several methods used to prevent stratification and most of them are very cheap and easy to use. So until there is sufficient data to the contrary, it would be wise to use one of those methods to prevent any problems.

I personally was intending to use a small food grade recirc pump mounted right on the side of the HLT. A car's window wiper motor would be great for operating a stirrer as well. They can be had for $15 or so at junk yards and are ready to run with a small 12V supply.
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Old 11-27-2012, 06:57 PM   #27
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Nice work Vesku. Looks like you've got it under good control. What method are you using in the Arduino? PID or simple ON/OFF?

I need to finish my Arduino controller this winter.
I measure wort and mash temperatures and then calculate "offsets" for temperatures. Then just a simple "if switch" and a couple of cfc-pump on time limiting if's. No need for a PID and I don't know how complicated it would get with 2 probes and step mashes, probably complicated enough.... It's really easy to do it with Arduino, this was my 1st project ever. I use it for flow meter as well and I'm working on to add a scale to measure BK weight during the boil.
Here's the setup at the moment:
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Old 11-27-2012, 10:10 PM   #28
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Whoa! That electric connection over a pot of water in a keggle would make we want to wear "high voltage" protection equipment.

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Old 11-27-2012, 11:53 PM   #29
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Whoa! That electric connection over a pot of water in a keggle would make we want to wear "high voltage" protection equipment.
Yep, I do that also every time I use my tea kettle

Seriously, it would easily pass IP6, probably even IP7 (30 minutes immersion at depth of 1 m) standard. And it's all behind a RCD, just in case....

The vertical element is great when doing the whirlpool. I had a horizontal in my previous kettle and that really sucked when it came to the whirlpool. I also get a way better boil with the vertical one, it's like a little geyser! Almost like mini-Merlin-kettle with out any hardware on the kettle.
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Old 11-28-2012, 04:16 PM   #30
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Regarding the temp diff: I keep my HLT about 6 to 8 degrees higher than the desired Mash for a starter temp.

We normally heat our Mash water in the HLT, move to the MLT and get the MLT to the Strike temp (normally by adding a small amount of cold water as it is easier to cool than heat.) We then add some water to the HLT to get it down as we are over temp for the Herms.

It does take 2 pumps and that is more than one, but you know the saying: "Two is BETTER than one"!

We have Stout equipment and even my HLT has a tangential inlet.

Regarding stratification, I have 3 temp guauges on my MLT , 2 in the MLT and one on the input of the recycle. I control the temp on the recycle one and the rest will eventually be right there as well.



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