Fermentation closet.

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cameronsto

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I've been contemplating this for awhile and want to make sure I'm not missing anything. I've done a few searches but haven't found anybody that's done exactly this.

I have a closet off the garage that I'm wanting to turn into a fermentation/cellaring closet. Living in the South, the temperature swings wildly so I'm wanting to air condition and heat (Summer/Winter) the closet to control the temperature for fermentation and also be used as a beer cellar. I've thought about using an old fridge, but it won't give me the space I'm wanting.

Here is my current setup and the proposed location of a window air conditioner.

beer-closet.png


My questions and concerns are:
  • Using a temperature controller, will I be able control the temperature enough, limiting the temperature change to a couple degrees?
  • Should I be concerned about venting the A/C into the garage?
  • Should I be concerned about the water heater being in the same room (HW in the diagram above)?
  • Am I missing another reason not to do this?

Thanks.

Cameron
 
I'm not an expert, but I can give you my $0.02.
  • I'd insulate the heck out of the room. That way, you shouldn't have an issue with keeping temps.
  • Venting the AC into the garage will cause carbon monoxide... no, wait, something else causes that. The only thing coming out of the AC on the hot side is hot air. Not a problem.
  • The water heater could be used to warm the room in the winter. You may want to insulate the heck out of that too for the summer.
 
I have no clue as to how well the room is insulated now. I know the floor isn't (it's a crawl space) but the ceiling is. I can't think of a way to check for insulation without cutting into each wall which I guess I'll just have to do.

The water heater barely puts off any heat. It's cool to the touch and in the winter it wouldn't keep the room warm with the door closed. This could be due to poor or no insulation though.

The air conditioner should remove humidity from the room so I shouldn't have to worry about condensation right? I plan on sticking with ales for a while so I'll only be keeping the room at around 65 degrees F.

Thanks for the reply.

-Cameron
 
The air conditioner should remove humidity from the room so I shouldn't have to worry about condensation right?

Oh yeah, I forgot, there could be condensation dripping out from the hot side too, so that's another thing coming out of the AC unit besides hot air. As long as you have a floor that can get wet, or some way to collect the moister, it shouldn't be a problem. Once you get the humidity out of the room, you shouldn't have much though.

I take it the inside walls are drywalled? You may have to pull all that down to insulate it. Unless you use blown in insulation. You'll probably be cutting a hole for the AC unit, so that would be the time to check for any insulation in the walls.
 
You could frame out another wall over the existing one. Insulate the holy crap out of it, and you'll have 8" of insulation (assuming the existing wall is insulated)

Is the water heater gas or electric? If it's gas, it's got to be vented. If it's vented, it'll be pumping expensive cold air out of the room in the summer. In fact, I'm not sure I'd put a gas water heater in a sealed room - Sounds dangerous...

OTOH you could move the water heater to the garage. It's not too difficult to run 2 water pipes and electric or flex gas line. I had to move mine when I bought my house because it was in the way of the projector in the theater. PEX tubing makes it even easier ;)
 
SweetSounds, I hadn't thought about the water heater being gas, but since it's been installed in a closet sized room, I'm assuming it's electric. And yes, moving it out would be a good idea, makes more room for more fermentation vessels.:ban:

BTW, you need to start brewing. Having all those taps serving air is a waste. :D
 
SweetSounds, I hadn't thought about the water heater being gas, but since it's been installed in a closet sized room, I'm assuming it's electric. And yes, moving it out would be a good idea, makes more room for more fermentation vessels.:ban:

BTW, you need to start brewing. Having all those taps serving air is a waste. :D

:off:
I know!!! I've been slacking on the brewing to plan the AG rig...
I'm going to try maybe tonight to get a blonde going. And I've got an Imperial Stout kit ready to go too. But the IIPA and the Stout are both 3 month secondaries - Not too good for filling up the pipeline! The blonde could be ready in 5 or 6 weeks though :) I killed my pipeline with the Florida trip a few weeks ago - 15 gallons in 5 days, Gone...

I'm definitely behind :drunk:
 
The air conditioner is going to make your water heater work harder, I'd insulate that water heater and line the walls in that closet with insulation panels. The only other thing that I can think of is that your garage is going to be hella hot in the summer!!!
 
The water heater is gas. It's vented through the ceiling which I'm a little concerned about, but since cold air sinks and hot air rises, I don't know how much of an issue it will be.

I'm torn between tearing down the walls to check/install insulation and just putting an A/C in the wall to see how it does. "If it's worth doing, it's worth doing right"...but I want to brew!

-Cameron
 
Yeah, you're gonna need to take the water heater out. It shouldn't be in a closet sized room to begin with. Would you be able to move it into the garage? Or, if the laundry room is bigger than the closet, you can just relocate it on the other side of the wall.
 
Is the concern regarding the water heater due to gas leaking into a closed room (potentially) or due to the heat it will give off and counteracting the A/C?

I never really gave it a second thought that it was in the closet. It seems to have been in there since the house was built 30 years ago. I doubt it's against code and when I moved in 6 years ago the inspector didn't say a thing about it.

-Cameron
 
It's not about the heat or gas, it's about the fumes. If it's not vented properly, CO can be produced, and not being vented means that CO will build up, possibly leaking into living areas. It was probably within code 30 years ago, but I bet it wouldn't be now. The inspector probably wouldn't say anything since it was within code when it was installed, but if you were to build something similar today, he'd make you move it out. If it was me, I'd move it into the garage. Not only will it be safer out there, but it'll give you more room for fermentation. :)
 
I was looking to do the same thing in a small closet i have it should be able to fix 2 to three buckets.

I was going to make a box with insulation then get a small pc fan and place 2l bottles with ice place in on top of the buckets and the fan would move cool air around in the box. My house stays at 70 to 73 all the time so i was thinking with a box of insulation and ice bottles i should be able to keep the temp to near 60 to 65 the best themp for ales
 
I see it as a safety issue with an enclosed room having the HW heater plus adding static pressure to the room from the AC unit with interfering with the draft draw up the chimmey flue. You'll alter the static pressure in the room and how the flue was designed. The added heat off the HW heater not counting the safety from the combustion gas scares the hell out of me and my life I wouldn't do it as well I bet it would be illegal.
I would move the heater into the garage but it must be elevated to meet code, move it once right.
 
I second BrewBeemer's comment. I work for a mechanical engineering firm and that is something we need to look out for in our designs.

Having said that, if it happens to be a sealed-combustion water heater, you won't have a problem. Are there two pipes going through the roof with one of them plastic? If so, you might have a sealed combustion unit. If there is only one, then you do not and you don't want it in a small room like that.
 
There's only one pipe going into the ceiling. Is that not a vent for the fumes?

Would a tankless water heater have the same problem? If I'm going to move it or do anything I'd probably go to one of those.

Thanks for all the comments.
 
Depends if it's gas or electric with a tankless WH, they are not cheap I know that. Yes gas fired your back to where you started with the proper venting as well the WH rooms static air pressure. Just mover the esisting WH into the garage on the other side of the wall, not much required in replumbing it except the 18" platform I recall as the standard by code unless it's been changed. This would be a win win, no heating of your room, safety factor plus gained space.
 
I like the moving the water heater idea, but you could go electric and leave it in the room. But that would require running the appropriate electric service into the room. Also, you won't be gaining the space left by the vacant water heater.

... Just another option.
 
OK. My preface to the wall of text I am going to type. I am a TSSA licensed Gas 3 Tech, and am in school right now for plumbing. From what I have seen, Canadian Codes are as stringent, or more so, than State Codes, except California. What I lay out may not be the Code for you area, but it will be safe.

1st. Combustion products, or 'fumes' (as has been said in this thread) are vented through the vent you see at the top of the unit. They do not get vented to the atmosphere around the unit. Water Heaters with a vent stack, and an ABS pipe are high efficiency condensing units. Unless this Water Heater is also a combo heating unit, it is not spillage-susceptible, and there is no fear of CO2 in the area, assuming the unit is in good repair, without cracks or other damage to the combustion chamber or heat exchange.

2nd. Water Heaters are often installed in spaces smaller than what you have shown. Many condos have a small closet that has the Water Heater, Water Softener etc. The requirements for installation list a minimum clearance from combustibles, discharge piping and vent sizing. As long as these are met, the area of the space is immaterial. For instance this Water Heater at Home Depot is a 36,000 BTU unit. Based on CAN/CSA B149.1-05 (Natural Gas and Propane Installation Code) this unit only requires 4 sq in of free area duct, or 2 in dia round duct.

So, that out of the way, I wouldn't relocate the Water Heater, I wouldn't buy a new one, and I wouldn't worry about the AC unit not working well because of the Water Heater. Insulate the tank of the unit if you haven't already. Make sure you have 4 sq in of venting, and enjoy your cold room.
 
Woohoo! Thank you DevilsCreekBrewing. That's what I wanted to hear! :)

Just so there's no confusion...here's the water heater and it's vent setup:

water-heater.jpg


DevilsCreekBrewing, does anything in my photo contradict what you've already posted? If not I have an A/C lined up for this weekend and just may punch the hole in the wall right after.

Thanks guys.

Cameron
 
Adding a positive pressure to the room from the AC fan will be equal at the chimney hat gap above the HW heater as well the burner but lower being the vent outside the house isn't under this slight pressure increase. My thinking this may cause the flue vent gas velocity to increase. My questions, will this added pressure cause the heated exhaust gases inside the HW heater to be pulled faster than it's designed under equal pressures conditions plus will this add wasted heat energy? this a legal build and design practice? This is out of my job background but i'll add these questions.
 
That is an atmospheric burner...The A/C unit might blow out the flame. Also, it could interfere with the combustion and possible cause carbon monoxide problems. If it were my house, I would definitely NOT keep the water heater in the room with the A/C unit.
 
DevilsCreekBrewing, does anything in my photo contradict what you've already posted?

Without seeing the rest of the room, I really have no way to say. I don't see any venting in that picture. Ensure you have proper venting, any louvered vents reduce the effective size, 25-30% reduction for metal, and 75-80% reduction for wood. I wouldn't use any open area in the air conditioner as part of the calculation. I may not have been clear enough in my first post, I am referring here to a hole in the wall that allows air into the room containing the HW Heater. It needs to allow incoming air for combustion.

@ Brewbeemer, I think you are right about the velocity change when the AC unit will run. I also think that with the close to air tight houses now, there is a similar effect when a house AC unit kicks in. Without a velometer reading, I truly don't know what the difference would be. There will be heat energy loss when cooling the room, that is a given, but from the original post, there isn't an intent to make a fridge in this room, just to level the temp out.
 
DevelsCreek, you obviously know much more than I do about this subject, but I think that the OP want's to control the temp in the room for fermentation. That would be hard to do with vents large enough to supply an adequate air supply for the burner, don't you think?
 
cameronsto, looking back at your diagram, how large of an area is your laundry room? Is it bigger than the closet the water heater is in now? And the pic of the water heater shows pipes going through the wall, is it safe to assume that the pipes lead to the laundry room?
 
DevelsCreek, you obviously know much more than I do about this subject, but I think that the OP want's to control the temp in the room for fermentation. That would be hard to do with vents large enough to supply an adequate air supply for the burner, don't you think?

Nope. Again, the OP says control within a few degrees, not turning it into a fridge.
 
DevilsCreekBrewing is correct, I am wanting to use the closet for fermentation/cellaring but at ale fermentation temps, so mid 60s.

DevilsCreekBrewing, there is no other vent in the closet. I hadn't even thought about incoming air for combustion...

homebeerbrewer, the laundry room is roughly the same size: 9'6"x8'4" The pipes don't go into the laundry room, they must go down into the crawlspace and throughout the house from there.
 
I have to give you a proper thanks for the idea, got a small basement, but a huge crawl space off of it, and a corner thats perfect to enclose into a fermentation chamber. I LOVE THESE FORUMS!!!!!!
 
I wouldn't think so -

My gas water heater is in a small room off the garage, the door is cut an inch and a half short, so the gas burner has an area to "draw" combustion air.

I imagine a window AC stuck in this room, without changes, could get me down to 62F. A layer of foam around the walls might help the AC work less often, and a Water Heater jacket might help mitigate the radiant heat I would be trying to combat. Of course the flue still gets warm, but heat rises, so if you keep your fermenting vessels low, and across the room from the gas burners, I imagine you'd do fine.

The room your heater is in - as it sits now, before conversion - probably lets air in for combustion - that's code. Somehow some fresh air has to find its way into the room.

Look for a gap at the bottom of the door - and if it's there, do NOT seal it off.
 
Here's an idea: build a smaller closet around the water heater, and cut a vent hole on the outside wall into the space for the water heater. You might want to add a door in case you ever need to to do any repairs on the water heater or plumbing, but that should eliminate most of the concerns we discussed.
 
Here's an idea: build a smaller closet around the water heater, and cut a vent hole on the outside wall into the space for the water heater. You might want to add a door in case you ever need to to do any repairs on the water heater or plumbing, but that should eliminate most of the concerns we discussed.

None of the concerns are based in fact, and I defy any of the posters who suggested it was to list a Code or Standard that shows it is.

I'll brew the rest of the year in a pink tutu, with video on Youtube if you can prove me wrong.

All of my suggestions regarding natural gas or propane are coming from Canadian Code. I will list the Code each and every time I offer advice on gas. I refuse to post "I think", "it could", "it might" or "possibly" with regards to gas.
 
None of the concerns are based in fact, and I defy any of the posters who suggested it was to list a Code or Standard that shows it is.

I'll brew the rest of the year in a pink tutu, with video on Youtube if you can prove me wrong.

All of my suggestions regarding natural gas or propane are coming from Canadian Code. I will list the Code each and every time I offer advice on gas. I refuse to post "I think", "it could", "it might" or "possibly" with regards to gas.

Somebody,
PLEASE
Find a code violation :cross:

This could go down as the best "I'm pretty sure you're wrong!" thread in history!

Quotable :D
 
I'm not in the industry, so I don't even know where to look for the codes. I do, however, know Mr. Common Sense. Mr. Common Sense tells me that, if a burner doesn't get enough O2, CO can be produced. And he also tells me that to keep a small room at a constant temperature, it has to be insulated well and air leaks sealed. My understanding of Mr. Common Sense's teachings is that in order to do what the OP wants to do, the room will have to be pretty much closed off to outside air, and having a water heater that requires O2 for the burner in the room isn't a good idea. My idea of enclosing the water heater and adding a vent to the outside seems pretty easy to do. Much easier than moving the water heater.

Of course, the OP isn't trying to make a refrigerator, just a fermentation closet. It won't have to be perfectly air tight, and insulated to 9000 R or whatever, but somehow taking the water heater out of the equation is a good idea in my book.
 
In the example I gave with the Home Depot 36k BTU water heater, it needs 4 sq inches of venting for combustion air. Assuming a 32" door to the room, that is only a 1/16" gap underneath to allow for this air flow. Let me know he BTU rating of your WH, and I'll let you know the sq inches required.
 
As convenient as this closet may be for your brewing needs, I have to say it just has too many negatives to it with the water heater in there.

As has been discussed, possible CO poisoning would be the main concern. The way your water heater works is by the rise of heat up the vent pipe, which causes it to suck air in feeding the burner with O2. This creates a need for a vent for fresh make up air to come into the room. Without the make up air, the heat (CO) cannot rise out the vent and will "roll out" of the water heater into the room as the burner tries to find more O2 to burn.

Because of the NEED for a make up air vent, there will be fresh air from outside the room being drawn into the room whenever the water heater is running, which will cause the A/C to have to run much more frequently.

From the looks of your design, the A/C will be pulling heat out of the room and blowing it directly outside of it. The water heater will then suck this heated air back in, which will basically create an endless cycle.

Also, the vent pipe coming off of the water heater WILL produce a good amount of heat. Ever touch that pipe on accident while the water heater is burning? If not, take my word for it, it's HOT. You could try to resolve this problem by running double wall vent pipe all the way down to the water heater.

If you insulate the room to try to maintain the temp, you are also going to be making it hold that heat in better.

If the water heater has a standing pilot the A/C blowing in there will probably blow it out all the time and you will wake up to cold showers quite often.

If you are absolutely insistent on using this room, I would highly recommend moving the water heater out of it.
 
As has been discussed, possible CO poisoning would be the main concern. The way your water heater works is by the rise of heat up the vent pipe, which causes it to suck air in feeding the burner with O2. This creates a need for a vent for fresh make up air to come into the room. Without the make up air, the heat (CO) cannot rise out the vent and will "roll out" of the water heater into the room as the burner tries to find more O2 to burn.

You say roll out, but are you referring to backdrafting? I have only seen roll out used with the flame, when it is not being properly induced into the combustion chamber. May be a regional thing. If so, backdrafting is most likely when there is little air flow across the chimney preventing the venturi effect, coupled with things such as a bathroom fan, furnace etc that are exhausting interior air out. As the AC unit is inside, exhausting inside, the reverse is true here.

Because of the NEED for a make up air vent, there will be fresh air from outside the room being drawn into the room whenever the water heater is running, which will cause the A/C to have to run much more frequently.

Sure will. Can't disagree with the AC running more often than if it was in a still air flow room. OP has said, a few times though, that this isn't a fridge, it is just to maintain a temp range.

From the looks of your design, the A/C will be pulling heat out of the room and blowing it directly outside of it. The water heater will then suck this heated air back in, which will basically create an endless cycle.

The AC is venting some distance away from the door, the air won't be above ambient by the time is is returned to the room. The AC is also venting above the floor line outside, and the incoming air vent to the room is below the door right now, the hot air will rise to his ceiling, not come under the door.

Also, the vent pipe coming off of the water heater WILL produce a good amount of heat. Ever touch that pipe on accident while the water heater is burning? If not, take my word for it, it's HOT. You could try to resolve this problem by running double wall vent pipe all the way down to the water heater.

Good idea.

If you insulate the room to try to maintain the temp, you are also going to be making it hold that heat in better.

I just used my velometer to do some measurements around my HW tank. I had a 1 degree C change to ambient over 10 mins of running from stopped. Could have been the HW tank, might have been random.

If the water heater has a standing pilot the A/C blowing in there will probably blow it out all the time and you will wake up to cold showers quite often.

No. The cfm on the AC unit is far too low to be blowing out the pilot given where they are both placed now.
 

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