Ss Brewing Technologies Giveaway!

Home Brew Forums > Home Brewing Beer > DIY Projects > Electrical Question, Electricians if possible!!!
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 03-08-2008, 03:18 AM   #21
slnies
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
slnies's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Maple Lake MN
Posts: 867
Liked 3 Times on 3 Posts

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WortMonger
Wire to a relay? Can you expand for a doof on electricity I only use big electrical words like receptacle to sound remotely intelligent, lol. The fuse box here is very spacious as there are two. They are just on the other side of the garage wall and on the adjacent wall a bit. Probably would be too hard to get too, but I have heard GFCI for 240V is rather expensive and I would definitely want someone to wire it up professionally. I do know there are two separate circuits in the garage here though. One is for the receptacles and the other is for the freezer, both 20A. I also wasn't sure about the 18 gauge wire I wired up the element to. Would that support 240V if hooked to a relay like you are hopefully going to fill me in about ?
Your wire to the element should be at least #10 AGW if you are running it 240VAC. 5500 Watts is a 22.9 amp load. You will need a thirty amp two pole breaker. Even in its current state I would have it wired up in # 12 AGW SO or SOJ cord. Bird does have point though, the inrush could effect the breaker. I only say could because breakers are now built to allow a certain amount of inrush before doing there job. It is just one more consideration. I would not be discouraged. If I may make a suggestion though, Get all of your loads and then figure out the best posable solution. It sounds like you are already in the process. I just don't want you to be discouraged by information overload. The system will do what you want it to do, you just have to plan out what has to happen to get it there. As for whether you HLT will heat water at 120VAC, the answer is yes, it is just not as fast as at 240VAC. Remember you are only heating 10 to 15 gallons of water at most with a keggle type system anyway. Not 50 or 100 gallons. I think we tend to loose perspective when we delve so deep, we get caught up in the small details and forget about the big picture. Well, enough of my rant, on with the project, and good luck.
__________________
Nies

Primary: American Wheat
Secondary: Phils Pils Clone
slnies is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-08-2008, 04:58 AM   #22
WortMonger
United States Mashtronaut
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
WortMonger's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Edmond, OK, Oklahoma
Posts: 3,141
Liked 28 Times on 27 Posts
Likes Given: 3

Default

I am really liking the idea of two extension cords ran and splitting the load between them from outlets on different circuits for now. Then, no matter what, a longer extension cord would be all I would probably need to be up and running anywhere I brewed.

I used an power cord from a battery back-up computer power strip to wire up my element and Ranco and it had the three #18 wires in it. I hope I am ok with those. They said 15A maximum on the cord and the Ranco only pulls 11.5 for the element????

__________________
"Beer... Nutritious and Delicious!"

"It's like a 15.5 gallon Mr. Beer!"
WortMonger is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-08-2008, 12:59 PM   #23
Bobby_M
Vendor and Brewer
HBT_SPONSOR.png
Vendor Ads 
Feedback Score: 2 reviews
 
Bobby_M's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Whitehouse Station, NJ
Posts: 22,013
Liked 975 Times on 652 Posts
Likes Given: 28

Default

Yeah, it will be OK for the 120v at 11.5 amps. If you decided to step up to 220v, you'd be pulling near 22amps on that 5500 watt element. It wouldn't be too tough to change. We keep talking in terms of 120/240v but I know my voltage is like 111v. I made up a simple spreadsheet to help calculate the actual current/power of elements run on various actual voltages.

http://www.suebob.com/brew/elementcalc.xls

I understand that you only want it to HOLD temps but I think it's counterintuitive to heat the water in the kettle and then transfer to the HLT that has it's own heat source. I mean, you have a stirring mechanism built in which will really help it heat fast and evenly. You'll just have to anticipate when you want to brew and turn it on earlier. I know this has nothing to do with your questions in this thread but I think people have the tendency to get tunnel vision on their projects.

Two 14/3 extension cords will do and make sure you plug the heater one in to a circuit with the lowest current load.

__________________
BrewHardware.com
Sightglass, Refractometer, Ball Valve, Weldless bulkhead, Thermometer, Decals, Stainless Steel Fittings, Compression Fittings, Camlock Quick Disconnects, Scale, RIMS tube, Plate Chiller, Chugger Pump, Super Clear Silicone Tubing, and more!

New Stuff?

Last edited by Bobby_M; 03-08-2008 at 01:21 PM.
Bobby_M is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-08-2008, 02:51 PM   #24
Bernie Brewer
Grouchy Old Fart
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Bernie Brewer's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Eldorado, WI
Posts: 7,539
Liked 111 Times on 50 Posts
Likes Given: 2

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby_M
Yeah, it will be OK for the 120v at 11.5 amps. If you decided to step up to 220v, you'd be pulling near 22amps on that 5500 watt element. It wouldn't be too tough to change. We keep talking in terms of 120/240v but I know my voltage is like 111v. I made up a simple spreadsheet to help calculate the actual current/power of elements run on various actual voltages.

All voltages will vary somewhat. Actual voltage is always nominal+/- 5% For all practical purposes you only need to use the nominal voltage amount.





Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby_M
Two 14/3 extension cords will do and make sure you plug the heater one in to a circuit with the lowest current load.
Please don't do that. 14 gauge wire is only acceptable up to 15 amps. If you are using it on a 20 amp breaker, go with 12-3.
__________________
I like to squeeze the nickle until the buffalo craps-mt rob

"Why don't we get drunk and screw?" Jimmy Buffett
Bernie Brewer is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-08-2008, 02:57 PM   #25
Jaybird
Sponsor
HBT_SPONSOR.png
HomeBrewTalk 2012 Vendor Giveaway Participate
Vendor Ads 
Feedback Score: 1 reviews
 
Jaybird's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Nor*Cal
Posts: 5,668
Liked 331 Times on 238 Posts
Likes Given: 116

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WortMonger
Wire to a relay? Can you expand for a doof on electricity I only use big electrical words like receptacle to sound remotely intelligent, lol. The fuse box here is very spacious as there are two. They are just on the other side of the garage wall and on the adjacent wall a bit. Probably would be too hard to get too, but I have heard GFCI for 240V is rather expensive and I would definitely want someone to wire it up professionally. I do know there are two separate circuits in the garage here though. One is for the receptacles and the other is for the freezer, both 20A. I also wasn't sure about the 18 gauge wire I wired up the element to. Would that support 240V if hooked to a relay like you are hopefully going to fill me in about ?
the relay is just an electricaly operated switch so you can use your control power (120 vac) to switch your load power (240) basicly any electrical supply outlet can teach you with a pen and paper how to wire it up in less than 5 minutes so what your doing in turn is you would have your rancho instead of turning on and off your element you have it turn on and off your relay, that in turn turns on and off your element. see your rancho is just a temp controled RELAY and nothing more. as for your wire size I wouldnt use 18 ga for that load even @ 11+ amps my refrence manual dosent cover 18 ga but it would seem light to me. can you use it? sure but if your element shorts out (god for bid) your wire becomes your fuseable link because your on a 20 amp circuit. As far as 240 GFCI you wont need it to be GFCI on the 240 VAC end because your control power is going to be protected. If you really want to protect it there are ways to do that and and electrical supply house can sell you the equipment to do it it will all come in a box with a gfci outlet and relay they market them for HOT TUBS.
Cheers
JJ
__________________
Need a False Bottom for your Keg, Kettle or Cooler?

I have been making custom False Bottoms for just about everything since 2008

Nor Cal Brewing Solutions, Reddings local homebrew store
(530)243-BEER and (530)221-WINE


Still have questions PM me here or hit the website.

http://www.norcalbrewingsolutions.com and like us on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/NorCalBrewingSolutionsfor Facebook only promos too
Jaybird is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-08-2008, 03:18 PM   #26
Bobby_M
Vendor and Brewer
HBT_SPONSOR.png
Vendor Ads 
Feedback Score: 2 reviews
 
Bobby_M's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Whitehouse Station, NJ
Posts: 22,013
Liked 975 Times on 652 Posts
Likes Given: 28

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bernie Brewer
All voltages will vary somewhat. Actual voltage is always nominal+/- 5% For all practical purposes you only need to use the nominal voltage amount.







Please don't do that. 14 gauge wire is only acceptable up to 15 amps. If you are using it on a 20 amp breaker, go with 12-3.
We're still talking about the load being handled by the cord though. If he's pulling 12 amps on the heater and 1-10amps on the aux stuff, 2 x 14/3 for all practical purposes should be fine unless he's using 50-100 footers. The assumption is that each of those 20 amp breakers are already serving something else. I'd bet that the receptacle he's plugging into is a 15 amp, not 20.

If he's going to run a dedicated 20 amp circuit just for this purpose, he might as well get a single 12/3 SJ with a 20amp plug (assuming the motor loads don't exceed 6 amps or so).
__________________
BrewHardware.com
Sightglass, Refractometer, Ball Valve, Weldless bulkhead, Thermometer, Decals, Stainless Steel Fittings, Compression Fittings, Camlock Quick Disconnects, Scale, RIMS tube, Plate Chiller, Chugger Pump, Super Clear Silicone Tubing, and more!

New Stuff?
Bobby_M is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-08-2008, 03:38 PM   #27
WortMonger
United States Mashtronaut
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
WortMonger's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Edmond, OK, Oklahoma
Posts: 3,141
Liked 28 Times on 27 Posts
Likes Given: 3

Default

That's what I was thinking Bobby_M. The 14/3 is 14 gauge 3 wire extension cord I take it? I am learning new stuff daily on trips to the hardware store and here from my house flipping and brewery projects. I hear you about tunnel vision, I was just trying to be nice and move on from the, "I won't be able to heat my liquor to sparge temperature" crowd. I haven't even ran tests yet to see how fast the newly insulated HLT will heat. Honestly, the only worry I have about heated water, is if I were doing a protein rest then having to refill and ramp up the temperature in 20 minutes for a sacch rest. All the other times it should have plenty of time to come up to temperature with enough speed. 7 gallons left in my HLT is my stopping point for the element to be turned off manually and refilled before the element is turned back on (leaving me with a little heat to help the incoming water so the element is helped out a little). I know a float switch would be groovy, but I am hands on the whole way through and float valves give a false sense of security as they can corrode/mineral-up and fail (especially after you have put them out of your mind as not-to-think-about because it is automatic). I am just not going to worry about heated water until I have to. Sure it will be a pain to have two extension cords running from my brewery, but it is not the end of the world and still sticks with my plan of a neat brewery after brew day. I will just get a GFCI to use on my element extension cord and be happy with rolling them up after every brew-day. I have to with one already for my drill/mill. Also, the golf cart charger is on one of the outlets I plan to use as well as a water softener. If it hasn't thrown the breaker before now I think I am safe unplugging and using it's place for the element supply. I appreciate the electrical schooling about loads and circuits guys, makes more sense to me now. I will definitely pre-wire a house for this specific purpose before I move the brewery there in the future. I just know I will be happy with the 120V setup on everything when everything is said and done, but yes I would always like to have more power. If I ever go bigger than I brew now, my next brewery will all be 240V everything. I honestly don't ever see doing that though as I would probably just start a brewery at that point .

__________________
"Beer... Nutritious and Delicious!"

"It's like a 15.5 gallon Mr. Beer!"
WortMonger is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-08-2008, 03:46 PM   #28
Jaybird
Sponsor
HBT_SPONSOR.png
HomeBrewTalk 2012 Vendor Giveaway Participate
Vendor Ads 
Feedback Score: 1 reviews
 
Jaybird's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Nor*Cal
Posts: 5,668
Liked 331 Times on 238 Posts
Likes Given: 116

Default

just wondering is your element going to be vertical of horizonal vertical means you need to refill when you still have what 5-8 gallons of water left in the HLT I put mine in the side of the HLT and I can run the heater untill I have 3" of water left. Just wondering.
I am sure youll be happy with the set up I was just trying to make it more user friendly and give you some ideas.
Good luck with the build. this $#!^ is fun isent it????
JJ

__________________
Need a False Bottom for your Keg, Kettle or Cooler?

I have been making custom False Bottoms for just about everything since 2008

Nor Cal Brewing Solutions, Reddings local homebrew store
(530)243-BEER and (530)221-WINE


Still have questions PM me here or hit the website.

http://www.norcalbrewingsolutions.com and like us on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/NorCalBrewingSolutionsfor Facebook only promos too
Jaybird is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-08-2008, 03:46 PM   #29
WortMonger
United States Mashtronaut
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
WortMonger's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Edmond, OK, Oklahoma
Posts: 3,141
Liked 28 Times on 27 Posts
Likes Given: 3

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby_M
We're still talking about the load being handled by the cord though. If he's pulling 12 amps on the heater and 1-10amps on the aux stuff, 2 x 14/3 for all practical purposes should be fine unless he's using 50-100 footers. The assumption is that each of those 20 amp breakers are already serving something else. I'd bet that the receptacle he's plugging into is a 15 amp, not 20.

If he's going to run a dedicated 20 amp circuit just for this purpose, he might as well get a single 12/3 SJ with a 20amp plug (assuming the motor loads don't exceed 6 amps or so).
Smallest breaker in my panels is 20 amp. If I know there is only one duplex outlet hooked to that circuit, I am dedicated for brewery element am I not? The other cord will be plugged into another outlet and shouldn't pull more than the normal stuff I run on them (drills, chest freezer, etc.). I am mainly worried about my element & (whatever I choose to be on the same cord) not being over my draw maximum. I think I have this handled by knowing the one receptical is 20 amp and is tied to nothing but the brewery if only one cord is plugged into it.

So, if we are talking worse case scenario? What is the type of extension cords I need to buy?
__________________
"Beer... Nutritious and Delicious!"

"It's like a 15.5 gallon Mr. Beer!"
WortMonger is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-08-2008, 03:50 PM   #30
Jaybird
Sponsor
HBT_SPONSOR.png
HomeBrewTalk 2012 Vendor Giveaway Participate
Vendor Ads 
Feedback Score: 1 reviews
 
Jaybird's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Nor*Cal
Posts: 5,668
Liked 331 Times on 238 Posts
Likes Given: 116

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WortMonger
So, if we are talking worse case scenario? What is the type of extension cords I need to buy?
on a 20 amp a 12 ga would be the best for that application a 14 ga could handle the load since SO cord has a higher load rating than romex because its ran FREE AIR and has the ability to expell heat beter.
JJ
__________________
Need a False Bottom for your Keg, Kettle or Cooler?

I have been making custom False Bottoms for just about everything since 2008

Nor Cal Brewing Solutions, Reddings local homebrew store
(530)243-BEER and (530)221-WINE


Still have questions PM me here or hit the website.

http://www.norcalbrewingsolutions.com and like us on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/NorCalBrewingSolutionsfor Facebook only promos too
Jaybird is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply



Quick Reply
Message:
Options
Thread Tools


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Calling all electricians and other saavy electrical engineers HELP!!!! flananuts DIY Projects 55 09-26-2009 02:39 AM
240 Electrical Question juvinious DIY Projects 17 04-11-2009 06:35 PM
Electrical Wiring Question Stevorino DIY Projects 9 11-06-2008 10:32 AM
electrical question missing link DIY Projects 5 03-26-2008 11:42 AM
Building RIMS - electrical question akula169 Equipment/Sanitation 18 11-16-2005 12:37 PM