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Old 10-03-2007, 08:34 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eddie
I hope you don't mind me stealing this for a bit.

What this means is that the smaller diameter you use, the more tubing you can get into the pot and the more efficient your chiller should be. With this in mind, you must be careful not to go too small or too large with tubing you choose to use. If your tubing is too small, the coolant flowing through it will become saturated early and will fail to transfer heat effectively which will increase your time spent cooling unless you greatly increase your flow rate. If you go too large with your tubing, the coolant will be underutilized and won't transfer as much heat energy as it's potential allows. To compensate for this, you would have to slow your flow rate down so that it can become saturated before being expelled from the chiller which will also increase the length of time it takes to chill your wort. Using 3/8 tubing is a compromise between the two. It allows you to maintain an easily manageable flow rate while allowing the coolant to be fully utilized in the chiller.
I don't understand the concept of lowering the flow of the wort chiller so that the water going through the chiller can be saturated (with heat?). I would think an "underutilized system" (very large tubing) would still be more efficient as far as cooling goes compared to a smaller size tubing, but it would just be extremely inefficient in the amount of water required (and thus be a waste of water and unrealistic).
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Old 10-03-2007, 09:05 PM   #22
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It just depends on which efficiency you're most concerned with... time or water. For the latter, you don't want water coming out of your chiller until it's damn near wort temp. However, if it is, you can be sure that the second half of the coil's length isn't really pulling all that much heat anymore because the delta is too low. Want fast cooling? full flow. Hug trees? slow flow.

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Old 10-04-2007, 01:54 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iamjonsharp
I don't understand the concept of lowering the flow of the wort chiller so that the water going through the chiller can be saturated (with heat?). I would think an "underutilized system" (very large tubing) would still be more efficient as far as cooling goes compared to a smaller size tubing, but it would just be extremely inefficient in the amount of water required (and thus be a waste of water and unrealistic).
Someone has already mentioned water usage. Outside that, underutilized coolant is only an issue in a closed/split system like an AC unit. Underutilized coolant is an open system is just not an issue at our flow rates. That said, the highest heat draw occurs when the delta between the water temp in the tube and the pot is greatest.

That said, maximize surface area and flow as much as your system will allow.
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Old 10-04-2007, 03:00 AM   #24
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Table with surface area above looks incorrect - it is for the volume, not surface area. d*pi*l is surface area, so at a given length, it should be a difference of .5/.375 , or 1.333 between the two lines - 25' of 1/2" = 33.3' of 3/8".

If you are comparing the same amount of copper (1/2" 25' vs. 3/8" 33.3'), my guess is that the 3/8" would be better. The 1/2" would hold 1.333 more volume (more fluid to transfer heat to) but the flow rate would be faster in the 3/8" tube - I don't have my fluid mechanics book nearby, but I think it is a wash. So, the smaller diameter would cause a more turbulent flow which will help cooling faster, assuming you dont get to equilibrium before the end of the chiller, and therefore would be the better choice.

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Old 10-04-2007, 03:59 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bearcat Brewmeister
Table with surface area above looks incorrect - it is for the volume, not surface area. d*pi*l is surface area, so at a given length, it should be a difference of .5/.375 , or 1.333 between the two lines - 25' of 1/2" = 33.3' of 3/8".

If you are comparing the same amount of copper (1/2" 25' vs. 3/8" 33.3'), my guess is that the 3/8" would be better. The 1/2" would hold 1.333 more volume (more fluid to transfer heat to) but the flow rate would be faster in the 3/8" tube - I don't have my fluid mechanics book nearby, but I think it is a wash. So, the smaller diameter would cause a more turbulent flow which will help cooling faster, assuming you dont get to equilibrium before the end of the chiller, and therefore would be the better choice.
The flow rate will decrease as pipe diameter decreases--your water pressure coming from your spigot is a constant. Think about it in term of water piping out of a water tower. A 2 inch pipe would provide a larger passage for water to escape than a 1 inch pipe. Or think of it in terms of a culvert under a roadway. If you have 20 acres of land draining to a pipe, it will need to bigger than a pipe with 5 acres of land draining it. A smaller pipe will restrict the flow.
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Old 10-04-2007, 05:02 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iamjonsharp
The flow rate will decrease as pipe diameter decreases...
It's been a while since I took physics, but something in this doesn't make sense to me.

If the backpressure is constant (I agree with you there) then a decrease in pipe diameter (cross-sectional surface area) should result in an increase in fluid velocity and maintain the same flow rate.

There are other things to take into consideration, such as friction applied by the reduction to the copper tubing and friction of traveling it's entire length, the compressible qualities of water, etc. ... but I'm not sure they would account for an appreciable difference in this application.

Bernoulli's Principle:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernoulli%27s_principle


But it is 1am, so the chances of me being correct aren't as favorable as they could be
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Old 10-04-2007, 11:37 AM   #27
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I got a simple 25' immersion wort chiller from my LHBS for my system. The sweet thing about my system is I can recirculate the cooling wort from my brew kettle back to my brew kettle splashing hot wort directly on my submerged immersion wort chiller. It does still take me a good 15-20 min to chill my wort to 70*F but I get the same time stirring... this way there is ZERO STIRRING!!! and when I'm ready to pump it to my primary it's ready to do so! ...ugg, wish there was a high temp self priming pump... =( YAY!!! I have a spare immersion wort chiller I need to get around to putting in a bucket with lots of ice and salt water in to pre chill my water. THEN it'll drop the time more, and in the winter when the water drops 10 or so degrees it'll help more too.

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Old 10-04-2007, 04:54 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D2T

There are other things to take into consideration, such as friction applied by the reduction to the copper tubing and friction of traveling it's entire length, the compressible qualities of water, etc. ... but I'm not sure they would account for an appreciable difference in this application.
You cannot assume continuity...headloss with pipes this small is HUGE. Using the Darcy-Weisbach formula and using the Blasius equation to get the frictional factor for smooth pipes with turbulent flow:



Granted this method may be beyond its limit to get very accurate headlosses, but you can get an overall sense of the trend: the smaller pipe diameter you use will increase the headloss dramatically which will restrict the flow of water through the pipe. Using 1/4" instead of 3/8" copper piping will make a huge difference in flow. There should be a noticeable effect in using 1/2" instead of 3/8" as well: the inner cross sectional area of the 1/2" OD pipe is about double the size compared to the 3/8" OD pipe.
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Old 10-05-2007, 01:39 AM   #29
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if you really want to drop your cooling times, make sure you keep the wort moving over whatever chiller you decide upon, I now recirculate the wort in the kettle over my immerision chiller (which is a 25ftx2 chiller like you described) in a keggle and it really dropped my cooling times

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Old 10-05-2007, 04:54 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jezter6
My roommate theorized something about heating/cooling water causes some sort of current in the pot. Not sure why, but he figured the cold wort would somehow move away from the coil and draw the warmer wort in for some reason. Again, I dunno, it was a crazy (drunk) theory.

You'd be amazed how fast water convects heat. Yes, in theory the wort closer to the coil will be cooler but only very, very slightly. A cool excersize to show your roomate how fast water convects heat... Take a small paper cup (like the 2" tall desposible ones for the bathroom) put about 1/2" of water in it. Now, take a lighter and hold it lit right under the cup. It will convect the heat from the bottom and disperse it through the water so fast the cup will boil before the paper sets on fire. (just avoid the lip edge on the bottom with the lighter, it's all paper and will burn fast)
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