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Old 03-02-2010, 07:31 PM   #1
illin8
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Default Control Panel Power Distribution

Here's a question...follow me on this one. Could you set-up two of these 1-in/4-out power distribution blocks on 2 circuits sharing the same ground on one terminal?


http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/Power_Products_(Electrical)/Power_Distribution_Blocks/Open_Style,_UL_Recognized,_175A-760A_(PB_Series)/PB1043

Block A: Would service a 110v circuit with L1 (Hot), Neutral, and ground connected to it.
Block B: Would service a 240v circuit with L1, L2, and Neutral connected to it, but have the ground from this circuit shared with the ground on Block A?

Trying to figure out a way of incorporating 2 circuits without making a mess inside the control panel and keeping it clean. Since the 240v circuit is 30 amps and powering a 5,500 watt element, let's assume its a dedicated circuit to the element. Power/control for pumps, PID, HLT stirrer, etc. will be supplied by the 110v circuit rated for 20 amps.

Can one side of the distribution block be used for a ground? Can that ground be shared with other circuits provided the neutral is maintained separately? I'm pretty sure you can but in over-thinking things I always get myself confused...

Also, what size/type wire do you use to wire up the PID? Does it have/need a ground? Should I fuse it?



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Old 03-02-2010, 08:01 PM   #2
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Yeah you should be able to do that. Ground is ground. Sharing it should not be a problem. Like you said the neutral is the one you want to be careful sharing.

I put a fuse on my PID. Mine is 12v so I have + and - no ground. I would check the directions. It should tell you if you need the ground. As for the size wire. Check the amperage draw of the PID. That will determine what size wire you need. I bet you could get away with 16 guage stranded. If not 14awg will for sure cover it.



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Old 03-02-2010, 08:47 PM   #3
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I am planning to use two of these in my setup, but I am also going to use a sepperate ground bar. These blocks will both have L1,L2, and N in them with one being fed through and e-stop circuit from the other. This will allow me provide power to the control, e-stop circuit and other things I might want powered at all times with one block and then provide power to everything behind the e-stop with the other. I think it is probably a bit cleaner to keep all of the grounds going to one central ground bar, but what you are suggesting would certainly work.

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Old 03-02-2010, 08:53 PM   #4
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Kind of what I did.

Just finished mine this weekend. Still need to put on finishing touches though. I removed the electrical components from the spa panel and mounted in my control panel box. So far i am just using the GFCI from this circuit. I built my own power cord. I ran a 6 gage 4 amp wire to it even though it is only using 30A or 40A (depending on whether I choose to run it from the dryer or stove outlet) and 240/120 wire with no ground. I am using the heavier wire on it so I can upgrade in the future if i can find a 50 amp 240/120 grnd outlet or circuit down the road. So there is a monstrous 9' tail on my control box which aims to be portable.

For the other circuits (120V). I have a 3 foot 12/3 sjoo cord that I ran to 3 different grounding bars one for positive neutral and ground. This small cord will tuck back into the box for transport then be plugged into a GFCI in the kitchen wall with an extension cord. So far I have run only the PID off this circuit. I used 12ga THHN wire to run to the PID with a 1amp fuse. I used solid wire but regretted it I will change this out to stranded THHN before this weekend. The instructions for the PID said the wire feeding the PID must be rated for 600V. Not sure why this is needed but it is called for.

The ground from the GFCI circuit will supply all my grounding needs for both 120 and 240 circuits. I did pull a ground to my switch and outlet in the back for the element cord. There is no space for grounding though on the water heater element.

I did not have time to finish up or test it yet. I was busy building legs for the control panel and will hopefully have it up and running for a test this weekend and will post better photos then. In the meantime if anyone can help me with these questions?

Do i need to ground the keg?
What should be grounded in this setup or panel?
Anyone know why the need for 600v wire to the PID?

Sorry for the hijack.



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Old 03-02-2010, 08:56 PM   #5
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for what we use these for, they are massive. i switched over to DIN rail terminal blocks with jumpers for the control box i'm working on now.

http://www.mcmaster.com/#7641k51/=61plp9

edit: fixed the link.

p.d.

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Old 03-02-2010, 09:05 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paledragon View Post
for what we use these for, they are massive. i switched over to DIN rail terminal blocks with jumpers for the control box i'm working on now.

http://www.mcmaster.com/#7641k51/=61plp9

edit: fixed the link.

p.d.
Any difference between these din rails and my setup besides modularity of the din rails? I think my system is solid but am unsure of mounting all this wiring not in an NEC box.
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Old 03-02-2010, 09:21 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Photopilot View Post
Any difference between these din rails and my setup besides modularity of the din rails? I think my system is solid but am unsure of mounting all this wiring not in an NEC box.
i think you need to do more homework before plugging that thing in. some notes (i don't mean this to come across harsh here):

- i don't think there's such a thing as an NEC box. you probably mean NEMA rating. not a huge deal there.
- you said you had a black wire going into a grounding bar. black implies hot. not good.
- that grounding bar appears to be mounted to wood inside a metal case. not good.
- everything metal gets grounded. enclosures, kegs, elements, etc. not understanding this hints that you need to do some more reading.
- 600V ratings are standard for enclosure wire.

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Old 03-02-2010, 09:27 PM   #8
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Code Rage put together a nice guide electrical-primer-brewers I would recommend reading it it my help.

Ground wire needs to be sized the same size as the supply wires.

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Old 03-02-2010, 09:45 PM   #9
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Thanks P.D.
No offense taken. I am asking around and looking for suggestions before its maiden voyage. I admit some ignorance. I have done house wiring but am out of my element outside the confines of that element.


Quote:
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- you said you had a black wire going into a grounding bar. black implies hot. not good.

I am using "grounding bars" only as a distribution block. I have one for hot, neutral and grounding. Each are separate entities.


- that grounding bar appears to be mounted to wood inside a metal case. not good.

I figured the wood would act as a neutral insulator for the electrical elements. Any suggestions on how to mount this without the wood? Would the DIN rails allow me to mount into the box and maintain insulation without energizing the box?


- everything metal gets grounded. enclosures, kegs, elements, etc. not understanding this hints that you need to do some more reading.

I can pigtail to a ground screw to the enclosure and the power cord to the element will have a ground in it. I can use it to run a ground screw in the kegs base. How do i add a ground to the water heating element?


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Old 03-03-2010, 03:26 AM   #10
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thread jacked.



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South County Brewing Co.
Primaries 1 & 2: Apfelwein
Primary 3: EdWort's Haus Pale Ale
Bottle Conditioning: AHS Oktoberfest, Biermuncher's Centennial Blonde

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laughing_Gnome_Invisible View Post
Love is not a pink heart on a Hallmark card. It is a curse on mankind in which the male of the species must continually struggle to gain his own happiness by means of satiating the batcrap crazy stupid whims of the lady with the snaky hair.
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