The Great Bottle Opener Giveaway

Home Brew Forums > Home Brewing Beer > DIY Projects > Another Control Panel wiring question

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 08-10-2010, 07:54 PM   #11
SweetSounds
Feedback Score: 1 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Des Moines, Iowa
Posts: 1,429
Liked 17 Times on 16 Posts
Likes Given: 4

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by hammis View Post
since i already have a 2000W element i think i will use it for the HLT and i will get a 3500W or maybe 4000W for the kettle. For the kettle, someone on another thread i had going made a very good point in stating, that "you need your kettle to boil, so there is no real need for a PID to control it", if i do a 3500W element it should be more than enough to keep a 5gal batch boiling (without scortching) and it will be as simple as let it run at 100%.

Or is my electrical knowledge incorrect in thinking i can use 2 SSR's for the kettle without a PID? And can you explain to me what a PWM circuit is? i've read about it online but i dont see how i would incorporate this into my panel

Thanks!
PWM = Pulse Width Modulation - It pulses full power to something, for less than 100% of the time.
So if the PWM is at "75%" and the interval is 2 seconds, it will deliver 100% power for 1.5 seconds, and 0% power for .5 seconds.
It really is a great way to control your boils, and will be very necessary if your boil volume is anywhere close to your kettle volume.

Regardless, the turn on voltage for your SSR's is likely no more than 32 volts DC, so you'll fry them if you connect them to 110v AC. (The PIDs deliver 9 volts DC to the SSR outputs, regardless of what you power them with)
So basically, you'll need one of 3 things to drive those SSRs:
A PID,
A PWM,
Or a DC power supply to just switch on and off.
__________________
SweetSounds is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-10-2010, 07:56 PM   #12
hammis
Experienced"taste tester"
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
hammis's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: canada
Posts: 292
Liked 3 Times on 3 Posts
Likes Given: 1

Default

ok updated drawing

__________________
hammis is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-10-2010, 08:18 PM   #13
hammis
Experienced"taste tester"
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
hammis's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: canada
Posts: 292
Liked 3 Times on 3 Posts
Likes Given: 1

Default

ok so here is my next question, if i do add the PID for the kettle do i have to connect it to both SSR's? and the same question goes for the HLT?

__________________
hammis is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-10-2010, 08:23 PM   #14
SweetSounds
Feedback Score: 1 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Des Moines, Iowa
Posts: 1,429
Liked 17 Times on 16 Posts
Likes Given: 4

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by hammis View Post
ok so here is my next question, if i do add the PID for the kettle do i have to connect it to both SSR's? and the same question goes for the HLT?
Yes.
If you don't provide the PID with the turn on voltage, they won't turn on
__________________
SweetSounds is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-10-2010, 09:21 PM   #15
hammis
Experienced"taste tester"
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
hammis's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: canada
Posts: 292
Liked 3 Times on 3 Posts
Likes Given: 1

Default

ok so here is the new diagram:



I still don't fully get how the PID controls the SSR's, or maybe i'm confused on how an SSR works.

Is the following correct: the switch will cut off power to both SSR's (either for the kettle or HLT), BUT the PID is what provides the small electrical currect which actually closes the "gate" which will let the 110V current flow through the SSR to the elements.

If thats the case then whats the purpose of having manual switches? OR is there a way to wire it so that the elements are only controlled manually by the switch and the PID is used almost solely as a temp sensor?

sorry about all the questions

__________________
hammis is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-11-2010, 12:17 AM   #16
T-Hops
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Western Wisconsin
Posts: 129
Default

The manual switchs are a saftey feature. You can switch off the power being supplied to an element no matter what the PID wants. Adjusting a PID takes a little time. If you have a boil over you can manually switch off power to that element to stop the boil over. You can also be pretty confident that when you stick your hand in your kettle to clean it, it won't kill you if it is switched off.

__________________
T-Hops is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-11-2010, 02:55 PM   #17
SweetSounds
Feedback Score: 1 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Des Moines, Iowa
Posts: 1,429
Liked 17 Times on 16 Posts
Likes Given: 4

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by hammis View Post
ok so here is the new diagram:



I still don't fully get how the PID controls the SSR's, or maybe i'm confused on how an SSR works.

Is the following correct: the switch will cut off power to both SSR's (either for the kettle or HLT), BUT the PID is what provides the small electrical currect which actually closes the "gate" which will let the 110V current flow through the SSR to the elements.

If thats the case then whats the purpose of having manual switches? OR is there a way to wire it so that the elements are only controlled manually by the switch and the PID is used almost solely as a temp sensor?

sorry about all the questions
A Solid State Relay is exactly what it sounds like, and like their mechanical cousins, an SSR requires a small current to switch a large current on and off. So your PID provides 9 volts DC (Or so), to switch "On" the SSR's output, and the 20+ amps connected to it. That kind of current would smoke the tiny little relay in a PID.

The switch is required for 2 reasons. Like T-Hops said, you can be sure the element is off, regardless of what the PID wants to do.
The other reason is that an SSR can fail "Closed" - In other words, if the SSR breaks, it can break in the "On" state, providing power to your elements and no way to kill it.
__________________
SweetSounds is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-19-2010, 03:10 AM   #18
hammis
Experienced"taste tester"
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
hammis's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: canada
Posts: 292
Liked 3 Times on 3 Posts
Likes Given: 1

Default

ok i think i have it figured out now, i will post my new drawing in the next couple day. i've eliminated the dual ssr's, since if one fails, things could go BOOM! which is something i would like to avoid.

what i will do is have the wire come in from the dryer plug and connect to the e-stop and terminals as before. Then 2 sets of hot wires will go to 2 separate DPDT's and then onto the elements. The DPDT's will be actuated by the use of 120V selector switched which will allow the coil to energize and "close" allowing energy to pass onto the elements. for now i'll just my primitive thermometer to measure the temp in my vessels and once i have some more cash i will add the PID's

__________________
hammis is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-19-2010, 01:24 PM   #19
SweetSounds
Feedback Score: 1 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Des Moines, Iowa
Posts: 1,429
Liked 17 Times on 16 Posts
Likes Given: 4

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by hammis View Post
ok i think i have it figured out now, i will post my new drawing in the next couple day. i've eliminated the dual ssr's, since if one fails, things could go BOOM! which is something i would like to avoid.

what i will do is have the wire come in from the dryer plug and connect to the e-stop and terminals as before. Then 2 sets of hot wires will go to 2 separate DPDT's and then onto the elements. The DPDT's will be actuated by the use of 120V selector switched which will allow the coil to energize and "close" allowing energy to pass onto the elements. for now i'll just my primitive thermometer to measure the temp in my vessels and once i have some more cash i will add the PID's
Whoa whoa whoa...
First - If your dual SSR fails, it will simply allow, or disallow current to flow (Depending on if it fails open or closed) - It won't blow...
Second - You can't trigger an SSR with 120 volts - You'll let the smoke out. Most SSRs want 30 volts DC, or less. Check your specs on the SSRs.
Third - I would highly recommend you do drop the coin on a PID for at least your mash tun - Not that it's impossible, but it will be very difficult to control your mash temp by manually blasting it with full heat from your element. (Not so difficult in the BK though)

Lets see your revised diagram - Maybe I'm missing something...
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ecnerwal View Post
What does the primary pressure gauge on the tank tell us? That's right, the temperature. Put it on a scale if you want to know how much is in it...
Put some duct tape over the gauge - Or better yet - Replace the high pressure gauge with a plug - High pressure gauges are useless!
SweetSounds is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-19-2010, 11:22 PM   #20
ClaudiusB
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: El Paso, Texas
Posts: 1,256
Liked 57 Times on 49 Posts
Likes Given: 108

Default

Quote:
Second - You can't trigger an SSR with 120 volts
The 120 V SSR version work well with relay only out controllers, no DC supply required.
I use a few 120V control voltage SSR's with my Love controller.

Cheers,
ClaudiusB
__________________
My Brewery Pics
Grain Mill Glycol Chiller
Keg Washer
ClaudiusB is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply


Quick Reply
Message:
Options
Thread Tools


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Control Panel Wiring Question JMichael DIY Projects 12 06-24-2010 09:01 PM
Control Panel airbalancer DIY Projects 68 04-16-2010 08:22 PM
Control panel wiring help NinjaJoe DIY Projects 6 03-26-2010 02:58 AM
Control Panel Wiring Moldymonte DIY Projects 1 12-03-2009 09:46 AM
Control panel question ILOVEBEER DIY Projects 12 10-07-2009 01:16 PM